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 Level 15 skill changes

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Super-Killer
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:23 pm

Level 12 would be really easy to get to with an ulti at level 6 i think. It's already possible to go to 12 with no actual creeping ult, but with level 6 you'd just be too strong since it would be level 2. And in the case you do get level 12 with a pvp ult you would kinda be sure to win unless some1 on the oter team gets that level too. But it could also balance more pub games because almost all the people would have their ult for first duel. Difference beetween level 6-7-8 wouldnt be that great, and this would contain most of the people playing.
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:21 pm

you know whats going to be the funniest part of this?

Atma/Silent Night/Nova/Chain + Banish + WC Builds hahaha, possibly pump out like ... 30k in Spell Damage in a couple seconds with Princes of Light... Because what ... Silent night will be up in the 12000 damage range @ 6, WC @140% Ruduction + 66% increase, then add in 2 novas right after that. KOTH just got so much more entertaining vs hst...
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:44 pm

unless he has avatar and slow poison... then he is gonna rape you old school style..
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:57 pm

i made a page long post, and my interweb died when i hit send...

Epic, banish is 50%; WC will be 100% at 40.

If skills are leveled every 6, they will deal about the same damage per level as they do with level 8. A level 6 (at 36) WC will be about 100%. A level 5 (at 40) WC will be about 100%.

the idea of level 6 skills is to make that grey zone of `this skill sucks` be gone. At level 13+ it isnt worth it to cast your demon spawn. Silent night is out damaged by 2 nukes, on 1/18th the cooldown.

the level 6 idea is to allow everyone to use their ulti first duel, and for ultis to not be useless in the last few levels before they upgrade.

Also, are people really whining that others might start using a farming ult, intentionally? In serious games, I have seen maybe... 5 people intentionally use a farming ult... in the past year. (aside from my use of tidal rush in Glad mode) I have seen more people use ele mastery in an hour...

Keep the convo up; i am still split on a decision.

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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:20 pm

i still vote for lvl 8 ults, changing ults from lvl 8-6 will make late game ults more vialbe mid game, as you are gonna get ur ults earlier and better incremental change per lvl (not lvl of ult lvl of hero). i know you wanna make the game shorter, but this will drastically decrease game length.
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:59 am

isnt that the whole goal of this movement charge?
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:11 am

well, you have to stop making it shorter at some point. I mean, 2 hour games are too long, but 10 min games are just as bad. why can't we reach a happy medium of 30-45 min games?
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:14 am

ok well just because somebody could make a strat that wins the game early, does not mean it will beat every build. and just because someone makes a strat that can pwn with late game ults at late game, doesnt mean hes going to win. it will more or less just add a new dimension to the game, u have to put more thought into a build because there are more ways the other guy can beat you.
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:29 am

actually, what you just posted is true in the game right now, so i don't think that really changes how he can beat you. i just don't think lvl 6 ults make anysense, if you are gonna give an extra 2 lvls to ult why not give an extra 7 lvls to normal skills? the scaling just doesn't make sense to me the goal of the ult is to have a super badass otherwise it wouldn' be an ultimate, i don't want them to be watered down to the point where an ult is just a regular nuke, ults should carry some weight
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:11 am

I kinda see your point, and mostly feel that you are blowing it out of proportion. If they deal the same damage at various levels, then what is "watered down" part? I mean, the first extra point (the fifth point) isnt wantering anything down, it is, for the majority of skills, just another level, to make it stronger; no way is that watering it down.

With level 6 intervals, you would only be investing 1 more skill point, really (opposed to level Cool and it would be used to make 80% of pub games be on fairer ground.

However, because the majority of people are afraid of change; and I still love you, despite it, I am just gonna keep it at 8 for now; and in the future, if it is something that interests more people, the topic can be dragged up again.

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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:37 am

well sometimes hyperbole is a good way to get a point across. but i don't feel that if you can get only 3 bonus lvls of an ability you should be able to get 2 bonus lvls of an ult, the scaling seems wrong. Furthermore due to the general image of ults, they should have this "huge" power without having to invest a lot of points into them. and im sure even if the pubs do make it to lvl 6 its not gonna make any difference really, because most pubs are so bad anyone decent could beat them with a random and a blindfold.

i actually in retrospect wouldn't mind lvl 6 ult, as long as they weren't scaled down, but seeing as scaling would have to be part of the balancing, ill have to give it a T-Down forever
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:16 am

in terms of pub; no one cares that we will always beat them blindfolded; it will always happen; because we will always be better; however, pubs would like it, for playing amongst each other. Really, the really bad pubs, who are in every game, and you wish would never play again... are the ones who keep the game alive. They slowly learn, get "alright" and eventually, 20% of them, will make some effort to join a clan.

And stop thinking of it as a 2 point investment in ults; the final level isnt scaling it down at all; it is making ults bigger and better; I am not scaling their values down so that silent night is still 7200 at level 40. So, the last level is nothing being scaled down.

Silent night (because it is soooo easy to work with) would be about 700 damage (opposed to 900 damage at Cool this is just as, if not, more potent, for the level, than the 900 at 8 is. At level 12, it will be ~1300, where it would still only be 900 on the level 8 scale. On the 8 scale, it is 1800 at level 16. On the 6 scale, it would be ~2150 at 18. At 24, they would both be at 3600. At 30, on the 6 scale, it would be about 6600; at 32 on the 8 scale, it would be 7200; at 36 on the 6 scale, it would be about 10,000; and at 40, on the 8 scale, it would be ~12000.

A chart:
6: 700
8: 900
12: 1300
16: 1800
18: 2150
24: 3600
30: 6600
32: 7200
36: 10000
40: 12000

See how it kinda flows a little bit? Your damage for your level will still be about the same; making nukes just as powerful when compared to the level of the heroes. So again, where on earth are you getting this "Watered down" idea from? IT would be like suggesting I only make 1 level of silent night, you need to be 40 to get it, but it does 12000 damage. Sure, you would save a few skill points; but until you leveled it, it wouldnt deal very much damage!

Investing 15 points into sayyy, Nova, gives 1/4 the damage of investing 6 points into silent night. But why on earth would anyone invest 15 points into nova? It becomes useless, why not just put 8 points into it, and go level evasion? Could it be, as you talk about elsewhere on the forum; that earlier game is a lot funner than late game? So, let people level their ults more early game, for more diversity in players!

Keep in mind also, that there are gonna be 4 purchasable skill points in the game. <<That is really the winning point in my mind; you can buy your last level of ult if you really wanna.

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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:35 am

ok with the damage values it makes more sense, but still, why make ults a 2 point investment from 4-6 when we can just make it a 1 point investment from 4-5?
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:50 am

the last level, dont think of as a wasted investment; because it is a new skill level, making it more powerful, not scaling it out across more levels.

So, the level 6 system is only REALLY adding a 1 more point investment; however, in return, you get to have your ult updated more frequently, allowing it to be a "powerhouse" during a larger percentage of the game. As it is right now, most ults, have at least 25% of the game, where they suck. (The last couple of levels before they rank up again) Farming ults are hurt the most by this; you are better off casting chain light on a spawn, than using your ulti at level 14-15. However, I cant make the level 8 version of it strong enough to take out an entire spawn of level 14-15 creeps, because that would be insanely imba.

What you are overlooking, are the 50% of ults in the game that are never used, because of the above reason. And my goal since I started was to make all of the skills in the game "usable" so as that you can random, and beat a pub; which is actually working pretty well. The ult house is the last house that has a lot of skills that people wouldn't intentionally pick.

Even if the rest means nothing; look at this as an extra +1 investment until ults; because it is only 1 skill point that will be evening out the levels more; not 2. The second one is simply for a bigger boost end game.

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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:27 pm

This has probably been answered but how is this effecting innates are they erased or are they going to be more then either a late game or early game only skill. Has any one ever openly picked flare the innate skill? If your keeping them some how arranging their usefulness from early, mid, to late would be cool. Whats the difference between abolish level 1 and its last level just more damage to summons? LOL seriously what exactly is different from Flare level 1 and its last level?
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:04 pm

Innates are remaining the same.

Flare gains AoE, and a lower CD as it levels; someone used it against me the other day; and well... i like to WW kite... died a couple times cuz of it.

Abolish gets a lower CD and high abolish damage as it levels.

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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:28 pm

once again, since this is sorta a topic about skills and things to do to make em better is it possible for summons to also gain armor when u level em? 7 armor at lvl 12 on skeles is kinda lame... maybe the extra 3 points you can buy will add armor or something like that... dunno. just pointing that out. aannnddd im kinda liking the idea of lvl 6 ults now.... ik u said they will stay the same and u prob dont care what i say due to what ive done lately but after seeing the billions of posts that were put up here last night i think it would be cool.
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:44 pm

i like the lvl 15 skill stuff. but ummm dont u think it would be kinda over powerd. lets say sum1 gets there offensive skill to lvl 5. and then they get evasion to lvl 15. and then there misc and then max there ulti like element mastery.


so skills lets say id get
tiny tim
maggic barrage... get it up to lvl 5 or little higher i usually stop at 5 or 6
evasion.... right now is at 47% ( what would it be with more lvls on it) max this out
bash max this
life regen or bash inniate
element mastery.... and max this

and if u can get element mastery at lvl 6 u can start useing it to farm a reason why u would stop lvling up magic barrage. could probably change it for storm bolt or soul burn for the stun or disable.

early game not everyone has a good magic resist to stop getting owned by element mastery
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:50 pm

lvl 15 defense will rape this build so hard, or anyone who buys fire axe
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:50 pm

btw whatever happened to regular defend that shit was retarded awesome, possibly one of the best if not teh best skill in the entire game, atleast add it back in as an ult!
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:25 pm

it was replaced by magic defense after people complained about the ms loss and as loss that you got from it. i was starting to get the hang of it in the old versions (just pair it with endurance aura)

and no charge, that comment ^ is not an excuse for u to start spamming other ways that defense was useable, and how endurace was a lame way to overcome th slow and ms loss. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:36 pm

It was kind of imba on Mana shield users pretty much with it and ms you would have to get purge or else you automatically lose.

Its use without mana shield was basically a counter to the -100 armor builds meaning it was a mediocre counter to corrupt flesh and uber weapon as it would take its damage reduction it gave you lets say for arguement sake 8% and give you its 75% other wise with just immortals boots you already have 68% which was a mere 7% off defend not that big of a difference.
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:37 pm

Quote :
meaning it was a mediocre counter

Actually, its pretty much the only solid counter to mass corruption builds. Avatar is easily kited, unless you have a ranged kite build with avatar. Lightning shields do not a bad job, but anyone smart would cast some shit spell/staff spell/insert here get the block off then hit you with cf. WW = gem of true sight.

Mana shield in many situations is a bad idea, but vs mass corruption its one of the few things that will keep you solidly alive.
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:38 pm

Quote :
Its use without mana shield was basically a counter to the -100 armor builds meaning it was a mediocre counter to corrupt flesh and uber weapon as it would take its damage reduction it gave you lets say for arguement sake 8% and give you its 75% other wise with just immortals boots you already have 68% which was a mere 7% off defend not that big of a difference.

this is countered by getting a decent skill build
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PostSubject: Re: Level 15 skill changes   Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:41 pm

defend was the anti physical DPS skill that no longer exists, i mean magic defense is the anti caster from hell, why can't we have one for physical DPS too?
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