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 Getting 4.0 Public!

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Glorn2
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PostSubject: Getting 4.0 Public!   Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:44 pm

after going over quite a bit of what I wanted done, and what I`ve gotten done; I feel accomplished! I would really like to get a public beta going in.. a month? It usually ends up more; but still, there is a time frame being brought into play here.

What does this mean? I will be opening up my tester list a LITTLE; anyone who can get 2+ shaman referrals, and if I know your name, you can get in on the testing list. this is including clan chao of course; but still, if I have never heard your name, you are SoL for now.

On top of this, I need more people on the tester list to test! It is getting down to balancing skills and heroes again, so play serious games, and report anything that is OP or too weak. The skills in it are mostly based on 3.0 skills, so are rather... imbalanced compared to 3.1b (excluding acid rain)

Also, I need people to test the ragnarok quest for me; many, many times, under every condition possible. Because of this, I will add in a temperary game mode that starts you off at lvl 40 with 300,000G and the rag quest unlocked. (should be more than you need to complete the quest)

So uhh yeah, I gotta update my tester list; but hopefully, if we can get groups of people testing (I really wanna see what a 4v4-5v5 would play out like) and get a good enough version out for the public to test.

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i_4got_my_user
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:14 pm

i have never seen any one on chao cept for grunts, and verti, maybe twice, so i dont know if i can get referrals. at around what time are most of the payers on?
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Glorn2
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:27 pm

In BN, I would say 6PM-12PM. I was on a few min ago and we had about 8 ppl from the clan on... Though the channel was empty. Even if you are in chao, you can get referrals from BN shaman. Wrath is prolly your best bet from chao to talk to.

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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:16 pm

so i'm gessing you are going to wanna have testers from all skill lvls as to see how newer players will be able to adjust to the game? or is that wrong?
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:19 pm

yep; we will be allowing almost anyone who is vouched for to test. Though, noob reactions are only worth so much; because you cant test the balance if the players arent balanced. But yes; we gotta make sure noobs arent gonna get destroyed by the game. (leveling is faster, gold rate income is faster, bosses are easier, and there are more creep spawn) I really hope noobs dont have a problem with it ><

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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:24 pm

right on, looks like i needa find me sum referrals
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:34 pm

see, thats the thing. i always see burningice on, but when i whisper to him he never responds. also, ive never seen anyone above grunt position in cc other than verti. :/
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:07 pm

If my b.net issue is EVER fixed ill try and help
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:21 pm

any one that cant host i will be testing every night this week 6pm-12pm whisper me
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:39 pm

my assumption here is that you want people vouched for because you dont want them hacking your map and/or hosting it publicly correct? if that's the case then i can't really promise anything about any one else. I mean i know smokey, moose, and i4got are in chao but idk if they are trustworthy or hackers lol.

i do know moose couldnt even get on bnet so he is probably safe...
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:59 pm

>< we tried getting you into a game with us, but you were AFK so we ended up 3v2ing.

Ohh, Also, I want to get some good PvP screenshots to put up on this site, and my helper.net game page. So, at some point we should try to plan out a 5v5 or 6v6 (there are like 30 people on the tester list)

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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:41 pm

well actually the account im in chao in is "gcpl_da_pwner" which is the account that i was on when i got the inspiration to try for chao, since no one was in bn. my "i_4got_my_user" account WAS in chao but back in the time of lab being the editor and there being no bn. i ended up getting a new comp and not finding the cd key for the frozen throne so i was inactive for a loooooooong time, which probably got me kicked. im 13. i use my parents comp. im NOt A HACKER Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:19 pm

Hmm.... time to earn some referrals... then again i still need to try out again for clan bn =P

*goes online to bug Glorn*

=)
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:37 pm

oh and i didnt tell you guys that i cant even host so there is no way that i could publhcly host the game ~ just giving u all the good sides of lettin me test ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:11 am

Things that need to be fixed/added in my opinion (4.0 v16)

-Bloodbath - The first few levels of this needs to be tweaked, either up the proc percentage a bit or up the damage a bit or make the effect last longer on creeps. As it is bloodbath can't compare to breath of fire, frost fall and all the other intel farm spells making illidian and the hunter just a sham again. I know this is passive but its no where near the castable spells, it's just going to become another pulverize.

-The side spawns need additional spawns, especially if this is going to start running 4v4 or 5v5, as it seems the center spawn supports as many creeps as the either bottom or top sides combined, All 10 Spawns should have roughly the same name of creeps, but right now the top gets like 3, side is 4 and middle is 6-7, if you don't happen to get middle you better have a fast MoveSpeed or your shafted pretty hard.

-Removal of the intro movie, the saving information can be tossed in the quests menu. That intro is just going to cause lag outs, frustration etc.

- Spell Damage Reduction to Low Items. After playing 4.0 with you and wrath with banish + (Insert favourite spell here) and the spell damage aura this is unbalanced towards str/agi players who dont want to use avatar for every build. As far as I know the only lower item that features spell dmg reduction is set armour @ 20%, and then the next is Cloak of Unseen. If your playing Agi/Str getting a cloak early on really doesn't fit into many builds very well, so maybe a 50% dmg reduction item for agi and str so we don't get constantly 1 shotted.

-Change up and add some new innates... The same 5-6 innates are on every hero and some of them are increasingly useless after a couple of duels, either have a way for innates to level with your character or add some new ones in to the new heros to spice things up a bit.

Ill find some more when I get a chance to play it and go through 4.0 without getting my ass walloped Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:25 am

The bloodbath thing is becaming a headache right glorn? Before it was too OP, now it's too weak... I agrees with everything this guy says. Also, when this goes out to the pubs. I imagine there will be a lot of PvP action and with the hero so fast, it's gonna be hard for agi/str to kill without heavy disable. So, maybe lower the fountain healing rate if this problem does occurs. It will also make regen a more important aspect of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:39 am

Some good points and some not so good points, going down the list...

1) Bloodbath was never meant to be a main farming skill. I believe I have said this multiple times. I really hope it doesnt farm as well as breath of fire. Why? It is pure damage, cannot be reduced by anything or blocked by anything. It is an AoE, and it is mana-less and almost skill-less to use. It is a mid and late game PVP skill, though helps while farming. This skill will deal 2X the damage any spell mid to late game could hope to, without banish and the aura. I can get you a list of people who have called this skill "OP". It is a secondary leveling skill, and for that purpose, it actually works really good. There is no way this skill can be a main leveler skill and not more powerful than any ult at the same time.

2) The map can maintain a 3v3 without any additional creep spawns. 1 person gets 2 top, 1 gets 2 bottom, 1 gets mid. The reasons the spawns scale, is to help noobs. If you are falling behind in levels, having 7 creeps hitting you at once will hurt, and you will die, and ragequit. If you are at the closer, 3 spawn spot, you can kill all 3, and run for a quick heal. They are also safer. This is intentional. You may complain about having to run for 2 seconds to hit another spawn, but when you are behind in levels, these smaller spawns will allow you to not die in 2 seconds. you people are just so used to fast+extreme creeps. Play the older edits for a week and you will be grateful ^_^.

3) The movie, is indeed time consuming, and annoying IMO. However, if you knew anything about map making, starting with a movie generally reduces lag on players, and players with slower computers have time to catch-up without lagging out. If you read any old posts about 4.0 I have wanted a cinematic in it for just that reason. It used to be just a guy saying, "This is to help reduce lag and yadda yadda yadda" But now I found a use for it.

4) Good point on spell damage reduction, although you are missing a handful of items. spiked gloves and gloves of death. Supersonic ring if you wanna go down that route, but I leave that to each persons opinion. But sure, I can add some new items that have early spell damage reduction.

5) I havent gotten around to changing up the innates yet, but eventually they will be pickable, and auto level every 10 levels. However, which innates are useless fast? Evasion gets better as you gain armor, crits are better as your damage increases, abolish magic can be used against a large number of powerful skills, bash is an interupt, or can help with a bash build, spell damage reduction, as you said above, is needed. The damage reduction ones do get weak, but early game they reduce your damage taken by 40%, allowing you to level faster via not dieing. I am adding flare as an innate to some heroes, and I will look for another innate or two to add, and eventually, when I fix a lot of other stuff, I will make a system for picking innates as well.


As usual, if you can get a number of people to support your arguments for the things I am against (bloodbath, cinematic, ect) then I will consider changing it up. But I just had to nerf bloodbath late game, and increase its early game, due to a dozen or so people saying how OP blood bath was and that they were gonna use it in all of their builds because it was so strong. So, everything is how it is for a reason.... for now.

Anyone else got thoughts on these comments?

***edit on KJC thoughts***
dear god, the headaches from skills. Someone fails with a skill and thinks it sucks. But as long as people are using it 2 outta 3 games, you cant say it sucks. if half the people are calling it OP while using it, then if used right, it must be good. When I changed it, i increased the base proc rate by like 6%, and lowered the max proc rate by like 3%. BUT THIS IS NOT A FARMING SKILL, keep that in mind.

Fountains, I think half the people here would kill you based on that comment. I doubt I could count on all my fingers and toes (21) the number of people who have asked me to INCREASE the range of healing on the shrines.

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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:59 am

The bloodbath thing - I am just repeating what people used to say about it as a joke.
Forget about the fountain thing then, but I still think maybe a problem with agi/str not being able to kill fast enough due to the faster movement speed might be annoying though.
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:07 am

Yeah, though I did amp up the slow on.. really, everything with a slowing affect. In 3.1 and most of the other edits, as a STR or AGI hero, for more than a lucky gank, you would want some form of slow. Fast movespeed works though. Last night we were playing a 2v2, undead was on the other team. He was a lower level than us, but still got like 6 ganks, simply because he ran so fast and had wind walk, and well, knew how to gank. WW will take you to any of the front 3 spawns on your opponents side. A frost orb and a dream are all you REALLY need, but poison strike will help too. I lowered the min move speed also, so slows are more potent if you have enough of them.

The middle spawn is a realllly easy play to gank if all you have is ringwalk. you could pull it off with arthas and a slow. However, for true ganking, you will always need a CC, which is the way it should be IMO.

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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:37 am

Alright, to address the spell damage problem. Because you are all too lazy to invest skill points into AMS, I made it an item also.

New consumables:
Lesser, Medium, Greater, Exceptional Anti-Magic Shield

Protects you from 500,1000,2000,4000 spell damage, contains 2 charges, lasts 60 seconds
gold cost is like... 300, 700, 1500, 3200

If you dont buy it, then you cant complain about being hit by spells.

Also, I added in a new level of potions and bombs.

15000G (a little less) total. old belt+exceptional orb+recipe
Heals 4000 mana/hp contains 7 charges

Fat Man (bomb) Massive bomb+ex fire orb+10k recipe (25k total)
5000 damage in a 600 AoE, 10 charges, 20s cooldown, hits air.

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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:52 am

Completely agree on your comments above glorny. I got more to say though.

How about making AMS better? Like adding magic resistance plus aborbing magical damage, i am sure many will pick this skill if you do so, the magic resistance given by the shell can be scaled like 10% + 5%/level, since it is purgable anyway, no sweat for hardcore caster.
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:09 am

Actually, I am not sure if this is purgable. I thought it was at one point, then someone used it against my banish build, and try as I might, I could not purge it. I will have to test it again.

Rather than putting spell resist on it, i would rather just make the numbers larger, that way players with some spell resist on their own would gain more from it. The resist you can add to it only works when it is up, it wouldnt work like a passive.

Also, the potions only work on YOUR hero, the spell can work on all of your allies. it is 350 a level right now, that is 4200 at max level. Each cast is worth 1600G. Not too bad as it is ^_^ I will scale the max level on it though.

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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:12 am

yea that will be best. Perhaps adding the duration a bit longer? like 10 seconds longer.
However i do remember there is a bug about AMS, but im not sure about it yet. But im pretty sure it is purgable, just like frost armor.
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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:28 am

the bug is that if you are hit with storm hammer, or w/e it is, stun bolt BS, the stun wont go off if AMS is on.

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PostSubject: Re: Getting 4.0 Public!   Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:29 am

Glorn, allow me...

1. bloodbath is fine early on, get some armor, find a good pile of creeps, and enjoy. it struggles mid to late game, but most farming spells do. it is a passive which means it should be weaker than something that costs you mana. If it was as effective as the spells you mentioned it would be way OP since it is passive. You compare it to pulverize as if that is a bad thing. Pulverize is a very good passive creeping skill for those heroes with little mana, especially for heroes with fast attacks. bloodbath is better for the heroes with slow attacks but a lot of tankability.

2. i haven't paid much attention to the number of spawns so i wont comment

3. the point of the intro movie isnt to tell people about saving, it's because the game is loading in all the weapons, items, etc to prevent the game from building up lag later on. he just used the time to tell people about the save feature and kill 2 birds with 1 stone. yes it makes the game load longer BUT it helps with lag, especially in long games.

4. There is another relatively cheap item that gives good damage reduction and is more useful for str heroes, spiked gloves do 20% and gloves of death fo 50%. You can also use the supersonic ring for spell immunity if you time it right. Additionally, the agi/str heroes should have more armor and hp than the average int hero, if you game them good early game magic reduction then you would nullify one of the only advantages that INT heroes have which is early game ganking. If you make everything without weakness then the game becomes ridiculously 1 dimensional and repetitive and boring.

5. innates, havent paid much attention


ok well you beat me to it but i think i made some valid points none the less
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