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 Yiff Elemental

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Soul_Th1rst
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PostSubject: Yiff Elemental   Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:08 am

Yiff Elemental

A Competitive 1v1 Build By LostVodka, ie; Soul_Thirst. Drink up bitches.



LORE: A thousand years ago back in the days of old, a council was held by the archons, which reached a conclusion to cast out one of their own from the arena. An elemental who did not seem to fit with the others. Yiff looked to his brethren elementals for help, and was given none. He was then banished from ragnarok's realm, and imprisoned in the mini arena, under the guise of his low stats. However the true reason was that they feared his potential... After a vast period of time, yiff forgotten by his fellow ancients reemerges no longer as the 6th elemental, but as a contender in the arena. Enter: “Yiff Elemental”


YIFF FOX:

Intelligence Hero / 400 range / 1.7 Base attack time
410 movespeed / fast cast time / 3 base armor
STR: 22+1.8 / AGL: 12+1.2 / INT: 24+2.8 (per lvl)

SKILLS:

OFF: Shockwave
DEF: Divine Shield
MISC: Attribute Bonus
INN: HP Bonus
ULTI: Elemental Mastery


HOW TO LEVEL SKILLS:

Main level shockwave, with secondary levelling of attribute bonus, 1 point in divine shield at lvl 6, and elemental mastery whenever able. At lvl 9 you will reach rank 5 shockwave and here you stop levelling it and main level attribute bonus, secondarily levelling divine shield, still with elemental mastery when you can.


SYNERGY:

Shockwave: is an aoe nuke that has a low mana cost to a relatively high damage output with good range and an instant cast time on yiff. For creeping / dueling on short ranged hero like yiff it is ideal, and often has creeps walking in a line to come attack you. Early on the +6 stats from attribute bonus allows for an extra cast of this, and therefore 1 more creep wave than usual, around midgame you will have a big mana pool allowing for many extra shockwave casts. Shockwave in addition to elemental mastery will eat through opponents AMS and force them to keep buying them. The fact that this skill only needs 5 levels, is very helpful in that you can max out attribute bonus/divine shield much earlier than you would otherwise.

Divine Shield: is one of the best skills in the game, used to add longevity, dodge opponents spells and compete toe to toe with avatar. Even just one point in it early is really useful, for farming and for dueling. Attribute bonus and hp bonus innate give you a total of 14 x 240 + 1600 hp which = 4960 extra hp and 24 armor which in many cases can give you enough time for an additional divine shield you might otherwise not cast. Yiff's move speed and decent range make good use of this ability attacking and kiting where needed, firing off long range fast casted shockwaves. Elemental mastery has a chance to proc shadow strike, which slows opponents movement speed enough to prevent them running away from divine shield. Another very slight edge, is yiff's awqward sprite model makes divine shield visually hard to notice, unless you focus on just it's sound.

Attribute Bonus:
when main levelled adds a ridiculous number of stats early-mid game, and is not useless lategame as its basically 2 and a half ultimate orbs for free. This skill makes up for Yiff's otherwise cripplingly low stat gain, and lets him get way ahead of his opponents early – mid, going into a super farmed powerful 1.7 bat ranged hero's lategame. This skill synergises amazingly well with elemental mastery, which allows yiff to farm / level very fast, and as a result put more levels into attribute bonus more quickly then other heros might be capable of. Shockwave allows for good earlygame farm giving this hero massive potential at all parts of the game. It also, along with HP Bonus, counteracts the hp loss from elemental mastery, and allows for a very fast shroud of the theif god early-mid game, that would leave most int heros with a very low hp pool.

Bonus HP Innate: Gives a very helpful early game boost, as yiff likes to get into his stride more easily. Mid game this build will rival str heros in HP, with the attack speed of an agility hero, and a greater damage output than both.

Elemental Mastery: usually works best on agility heros, however the item build focus on things that boost both int and agl, like a fast shroud of the theif god in addition to yiff's 1.7 bat allows for very fast spell procs. This skill has a useful mana burn that vs vortex builds allowing for recasting of divine shield, due to it's low mana cost, yiff's massive int mana pool, which is further boosted by +240 in of attribute bonus.


STRENGTHS:

An exceptionally solid 1v1 build. Very strong passive synergy with no definite counters. Thrives in all parts of the game, farming fast early on, and doing elementals and archons even faster midgame, that will flat out destroy just about all lategame builds in their lategame phase, that is if they even get there.

(Note: there is no weaknesses section as this build in fact has no definite counters)


HOW TO PLAY IT:

Early game: start mystic's cloak and go mid spawn, killing it using two shockwaves and auto attacks. If you are able to, take middle top, however if they get there first, let them have it. Play it safe. Then go to the next zone over to the left, doing 3 in total before healing. Grab the 4 pieces of set armor and repeat on the bottom and middle spawns 4 in total, returning to base for set armor an hp potion and or an AMS, you should be at level 7.

After first duel grab boots and continue farming towards totemic set which you should almost always get for second duel. At this point farming will pick up like crazy, use divine shield to add a bit of longevity when creeping, and spam shockwave, as you have a mana regen aura and it has a lot mana cost. From here get cloak of unseen for the third duel, (with unseen cloak u can do yiff in mini arena) then make theifs mask and jagged sword selling mystic's cloak for an hp pot and doing fire elemental once before the 4th duel.

Mid game: If you havn't done elemental yet, then at this point sell mystic's cloak, grab a greater orb of fire and a healing potion (leaving power set at base) and kill the fire elemental twice in one go, make shroud of the theif god, and lvl 2 fire sword / flaming talons. From here farm the second archon over and over again using divine shield after his frost shield cast ends. Make then in this order; “Speed Set / Power Shield / Burning Halo / Elemental Shield lvl 1 / Warrior's Shield.

Late game: In lategame make Executioner's blade, make auroric set Upgrade your elemental shield to the second level. Collect the archon drops, start doing the ragnarok quests, and make immortal's boots, pantheons and Essences of the immortal.


DUELING TACTICS:

At the beginning check opponents hero and what skill they use when farming, to give you an idea of how to behave during duel, like if you see tentacles, try to predict an opponent casting them and step aside as they do. Always carry a potion and AMS early on, and spam shockwave. If the opponent has an ability like death orb, or wrath of hell save divine shield for it's cast. Mid-lategame in duels you want to hit and run, go in and back out, and go in and use divine shield, get some hits off, and run away and kite with shockwave, especially if they are melee or move slower than you, if this behaviour is pissing them off, then you are doing it right. They are now in a difficult position, stand and take the full length of divine shield's beatdown, or run and fear kiting until divine shield comes off cooldown again. It's win-win for you either way. The pure damage output of this build is something most opponents cannot handle, and their strategies will be completely shut down as the game approaches mid-late.


HOW IT DEALS WITH STUFF:

VS Ganker: Yiff moves and farms very fast with shockwave and elemental mastery, while also sporting a relatively high hp and mana pool. Yiff can dodge / cancel disables with divine shield and in lategame will completely outclass them. (ITEM VARIATION: later on their disables can be blocked  with the alternative lightning shield over corruption shield or supersonic ring.

VS Heavy Magic Damage Build:  A build using like weak constitution or mana explosion can be strong even with Yiff's large hp pool. (ITEM VARIATION: Instead of making shroud of the theif god after jagged sword, Burning Halo is made. So instead of my HP being lowered, it is increasing by 2000 putting my hp at about 7700 instead of 4800, and keeping the 50% magic resistance of cloak of unseen.)

VS Avatar: Avatar can be run from with divine shield, as well as yiff's fast move speed and high hp pool. (ITEM VARIATION: If they have a skill like soul burn, darkness or poison strike, supersonic ring can be gotten for the priors, and corruption axe/doombringer can be gotten over the usual flaming talons/executioner's blade. As crit from ranged won't proc against avatar users anyways, therefore this gives a greater damage output.)

VS Mana Vortex: Is absolutely useless against this build. Shockwave is cheap and only used early game. Attribute bonus / elemental mastery are unaffected by it and divine shield can be cast while out of range, and has a really low mana cost on an int hero like yiff with a massive mana pool, and fast mana regen rate further boosted by +240 int of attribute bonus, and elemental mastery's chance to proc mana burn allows recasting of it. (ITEM VARIATION: NONE)

VS Armor Reduction Builds: Not much to say here, (ITEM VARIATION: Stone Shield instead of corruption shield GG)

VS Buff Builds: These builds use skills like rejuvinate or vampiric aura. However they pose no threat, as they can be countered by a 2200 gold Lightning orb. (ITEM VARIATION: Lightning Orb in Inv.)

VS Summoner: A summoner will be outfarmed and outdamaged by shockwave / elemental mastery. Their summons will also proc more of elemental mastery, and end up working against them. Once fire elemental has been beaten, their summons will melt. (ITEM VARIATION: NONE)

VS Disablers: Although my item build on yiff usually goes decaying shield for extra armor reduction, if their disables are a threat, i will pick up lightning shield alternatively. Early on if the disable is like doom roots, or a projectile like storm bolt, a well timed divine shield can dodge it. (ITEM VARIATION: Lightning shield over corruption shield, or supersonic ring)

VS Lategame Passive: Say for example a build like slither with deathstrike and rein. Should lose alot early on, and lategame the farm difference, as well as elemental mastery/divine shield/attribute bonus and yiff's 30% chance for 6k+ crits off -85 armor to opponents will still overcome them. (ITEM VARIATION: NONE)

VS Images: Will be outfarmed around mid game, their images will then get destroyed by the high damage output, fire orb splash, and elemental proc's, usually all in the timespan of one divine shield cast. (ITEM VARIATION: If they have disables, they can be dealt with by supersonic ring or Lightning Shield.)

VS Mana Shield: I suppose super lategame it could hypothetically be an issue, but with yiff's massive damage output, mana burn from elemental mastery, it really isn't. (ITEM VARIATION: Potentially a butcher's cleaver, however executioner's blade is still probably fine as is.)


CLOSING NOTES:

This build has beaten dagum once, wuus once, epicpowda once, unholy blood twice, wrathtoruin twice, pennywise thrice, randomloser once, and orimis twice. It has never lost. Half of those wins, were in fact games where the opponent knew what i was going and still was unable to beat me.

** However, i do not think this build is unbeatable, a really good player specifically countering it might be able to, but if an unbeatable build does actually exist, this is the closest i have come to it. **
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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:08 am

I havent played CHA in a couple months, lets do this!

Notes on the build though:

I have run this exact same build many times on agility; and I also run it on strength (swapping stats for endurance aura if I am against a good opponent) I can see that on this hero you may do better early game due to a larger mana pool; and have the great late game boost of 1.7 BAT.

The biggest downside to a build like this is gankers/fast movers/ people who are good with CC. Divine is nice; but WW counters it well; as does a high movement speed. Ele mastery is countered by AMS or shields. That however, does not counter its great farming potential.

Also keep in mind that you are running an agility dependent build; and attribute bonus does not grant attack speed. I see you use a sword early; and many other items which grant DPS over survival. With that in mind; you have almost no way of easily defeating bosses "early". A build which can take out a fire elemental at level 16 on the first try will speed past you in levels and dominate mid-game based on that fact. The build is very level dependent; I feel that any build that can farm fast while maintaining late game strengths (hex, corrupt flesh, demon spawn, avatar, mana shield, terraptus, badger, crit master... ect, ect) will put you in that very awkward situation of "Well, I would normally have my ____ item by now"

I am in town today only; lemme get a warmup game on, then show me what you got; I will revise this post once I see it in action, to better assess the killing abilities.

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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:47 pm

sure what time might you be on? And thankyou for the review!

To comment on your assessment of fast farmers / elemental doers causing me issues, when i played epic and orimis they both had builds of that nature, and by the third duel i started winning. The item build is very flexible, and i usually get elementals at lvl 19 after i get jagged sword. I would like a match with you still tho :]

Im doing my blackbelt cycle for second degree from 5:00 - 8:00 pm, so if we have a match it has to be before or after that!

Edit: We missed each other today, but perhaps somehow i could post my replays playing top tier players so you could get a better idea of how it functions in real time instead of just on paper.
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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:14 am

Glorn you don't even know it that low Bat with bonus stats makes it a monster.

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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:58 pm

Your Hero:
58 starting stats, 5.8 per level (1.2 agility, which grants attack speed) assume a basis of level 30 for capped bstats and easy math. 5.8X30=152+58=210 total stats, 48 of it is agility. 800 agility is the cap (400% IAS) bonus stats does not increase attack speed.

Compare a BAT of 1.7 to a BAT of 2.0 (Many ranged int maintain this) that is a 15% difference in damage output.

My Hero: (pick a random ranged int)
70 starting stats, 9 per level (say 2.5 agi per level) again, level 30 is a good proving point; the point when most games are decided, or actually become good. 9X30=270+70=340. My hero has 130 more stats than you. Pretend AGI ends up somewhere around 85 (A very average number). That is 20% IAS over your hero; a 20% increase to damage; outweighing your 15% boost from BAT. My hero also has ~60 more damage than you from stats (at this stage in the game, about a 5% boost). I have 4 bonus armor (from my higher base AGI than you) giving me ~12% EHP over you, and sayyy 600 more HP (~660 after the inclusion of my 4 bonus armor; also take into account that most people have 60 armor already at this point, for a nice boost to 1860 EHP)

End Toll:
10% more damage output than you
12% higher EHP on all life
~1860 bonus EHP

This is based entirely on heroes alone.

Perfection is perfection, who wins and who loses doesn't pale to who should win or who should lose. Based on hero selection alone; I win.

to continue my trend of being a total dick:
"Run the same build on a str hero"
"If you stop leveling shockwave at 5, you lose to anyone good at farming. If you dont; you are weaker late game and worse off for pvp."
"You rely on attack speed from a short range; making your survival terrible while creeping unless you can really spam stats; in which case, you cannot shockwave farm. your int is wasted."
"Windwalk during divine."
"Prismatic Shield"
"Badger"
"Seriously, you didnt list Badger above"
"Can you beat a badger?"
"Set Armor for first duel? Reminds me of the good ol'e days!"
"how to counter healers, or divine shield?"
...ultimately, ask yourself how you would beat yourself, using the same build.
Your strat overall is extremely harshly based on the fact that you will be winning, and you will be outleveling your opponent, and your opponent will not pressure you at all. The biggest downfall to your build would be making you do anything differently. you rush a lot of agility and attack speed; while getting a shield early which offers no stats. I do really enjoy corrupt shields though. Getting 3 weapons though; such a late game move.

As I said above; perfection is key; unless you are playing a build perfectly; why play it? My badger build has a few imperfections; epics tents/disable build has a few flaws; but yeh know... You usually lose to them(always lose to them) because the strengths are so overwhelming; you dont see their flaws. ... Man, the number of times I lost to epics build before I finally overcame it... Can't for the life of me remember how; but it was a very long, very close game. I think that a badger may have had something to do with it...

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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:02 pm

"Perfection is perfection, who wins and who loses doesn't pale to who should win or who should lose. Based on hero selection alone; I win." okay so with no items, or skills just heros alone i would lose. Fair enough.

"If you stop leveling shockwave at 5, you lose to anyone good at farming. If you dont; you are weaker late game and worse off for pvp." Seeing as i said that i've played every active player in the clan atleast once with build, are you implying none of them are good at farming?

Also your assessment of me requiring winning duels (harshly you said) is wrong. Several of the games i played against people had ridiculous fast farmers who pressured me and stole my spawns, epic included had a tents / wrath of hell disables build (in fact the one you mentioned) that outlevelled me early. But by the 6th duel onwards it was pretty one sided in my favor and we said gg.

Windwalk / badger sounds interesting during earl/mid game.

I make no claims that the build is unbeatable, merely that as of yet it just has not been. At the end of my post i specifically state this.

Tell me when you are on, and we can try to plan a match, and ill add the outcome to my list.
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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:22 am

Glorn play a damn game.We miss you.

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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:04 pm

I am not suggesting that your build is bad, or that the players you have beaten are bad. Without a replay and an honest idea of the mindset of the players you had beaten before the games started; beating a playing doesn't make you any better than them; or make your build any better than theirs.

I am not trying to insult you or your build; I am simply suggesting that with very minor changes, your build can be amplified. I may have been rude in some of my manners of saying it; but facts is facts.

you want to play a game against me; who has played 2 games in the past... 4 months... and then claim that the outcome has any merit on a build vs build basis? As many of the best players know, winning doesn't make you the best. I have lost to almost every prominent member the CHA community has ever had. In my prime; I was considered the best; despite that fact. Players like HST had thousands of wins under their belt; including wins over every prominent player in the CHA community; yet he was a bad player.

I guess game ethics don't really belong here, but, well, conversation is conversation...

the fact that without playing the game for 4 months; I can still improve your build by a staggering 7-10% with a single small change; makes me a better CHA player than you. Once again, perfection is perfection. I am not perfect in my execution, never was. However; knowing how to optomize a build can allow for much less to rely on execution.

While we are using build theory here; I will tell you which build I plan to use against you, and I would really appreciate as much feedback as you can offer for a match between the two. this is something me and epic have often done; rather than playing 2 builds against each other; we theorize how the game would go; then test those results. Then; after the game, we take into account various human errors and oversights which may have skewed the results from our original thoughts.

^^IMO this is how CHA should be played. If you can theorize how a match should be played; and then execute it perfectly (how you theorized it) then you are a great CHA players. Anyone can chime in on this; any I will not take offense if anyone wants to call my opinions "wrong" so long as they use something other than opinion to back them up.

(I would like to point out that I do really like your build, and am quite fond of how well your write-up on it is.)

My Build: (Badger)
Archmage
Flamestrike
Hibernate
Bonus Stats
Life Regen
Badger

I am sure everyone here can explain why these skills are used, but I will go on...
Archmage: 600 ranged int, very high int, 2.1 BAT I think, moderate move speed, 70+9 stats. Perfect int amount for getting perfect casting of flamestrike out before having to heal; pre-first duel. yes; my hero selection is based most entirely on pre-first duel. When I have practiced a bit; I can consistently hit level 8 for first duel; and with luck, 9. 8 is pretty set in stone though.
Flamestrike: Large AoE spell damage; a smart opponent is able to counter it; but the damage is pretty good. Level this to 8. 12 if your opponent is a fast farmer and you need to stay ahead.
Hibernate: 1 point of hibernate, before the first duel (level 6) is all you need. this allows you to sleep and be invulnerable for 6 seconds; while providing you with a small heal. If you opponent buys an AMS potion; you will win because you have a heal and he doesnt (first duel) This also allows you to either protect your badger, or protect yourself and allow your badger to tank for you as you regen life, and your badger heals you and debuffs your opponent.
bonus Stats: they give enough stats that for the first 2 duels; you get extra spell casts off before having to heal; allowing for great farming. The armor bonus, damage bonus, and life bonus are great. This is leveled as you might assume.
Badger: Badger is.. badger. He isnt much for farming; but can take hits. He also grants an amazing aura or armorness. He also casts chain heal. He also casts cripple. He also has bash. He also has crit. He also has a great slow aura. He also has an insaneeee slow aura. He also has truesight. He is also low mana and his duration is almost equal to his cooldown. ... Almost forgot; he can cast an ability which give you a nice 10% damage boost. He can also tank an elemental while he is level 2; allowing you to get an exceptional fire orb at 16. to summize: you cannot kill him; he gives me 33%-200% increased EHP, he heals me, he increases me damage by 10%, he lowers your damage by 30%, he can see you cloaked, he is an anti-kite (taunt and slow auras) and he will slow your attack speed; on account of the slow aura. Oh wait, also forgot to add, he has 80% spell reduction. .. And spirit link; which splits all damage into spell damage.

How the build plays: I win. seriously... I win. but if you must know... 8 is a promise for first duel; unless you are stupid enough to let an opponent gank you or spawnjack. 9 if you manage to gank or spawnjack them. 10 if you kill them while spawnjacking them. 11 if you sub in a farmer for badger; and gank them for while spawnjacking them (I have done all of these against good players). Tiara+boots, then crown of ages, and crown of mind, then medium ams/potion (depending on how good your opponent is looking) or small potions, and a magic shield. You will be creeping when the duel starts; that is your chance to hit 9. you do not retun to base like your opponent will for a pre-duel shop. Duel starts; cast badger, cast AMS; send badger in; taunt while you flamestrike; hibernate after you take 200 or so damage; make them fight the badger. then can run if they want; while you heal and restore mana; and your badger does a few damage. Whatever. you cannot lose the first duel. It simply does not happen. It has never even been close. Usually a health potion isnt even needed; but remember, you have a 1k health pot. Why? Because you arent gonna lose the first duel. Why? Because when you win the first duel; if you havent leveled to 9, you will. When you level to 9, leave the duel, and clear a creep spawn before your opponent respawns; you will be level 10. When you are level 10; your opponent will be level 7. you will take his creep spawn if he goes center. If he does not go center; he is smart; but wasting another 3 seconds of travel time; while you take his center, and get a free creep clear, saving you 3 seconds of travel time (Plus the added benefit of taking your opponents creep spawn).
-- I must interject to add that this is what I mean by "playing a build perfectly". HST had a shitty build; but boy; he was damn good at playing it. Even if you cannot always live up to the standards set by the build you are using; they are there, and you know them. Failure to obtain them by any means other than "my opponent was better than me" means that you failed the build.
... To continue with much less detail... This build will maintain 3-12 levels on a good opponent throughout the game; while being too powerful to gank, and having no weaknesses other than brute strength combined with superior leveling (a pure farm build with the AMS skill and a huge budget for potions early?) Usually around level 22-24 or so; the build will have 1000-1100 damage with ~90 total armor and ~200% IAS. total EHP is somewhere around 30k. I buy potions every duel. I harass. I taunt. My badger taunts. I get you so worked up that you make terrible decisions (Like a light orb). My badgers armor increase alone counters your corruption shield+weapon. remember, you cannot kill my badger. you have 2 item slots dedicated to kinda countering my badgers armor aura. I also am pretty well dedicated to getting a prismatic shield. why? 90% spell reduction. Strange? I know. My badger has 80% spell reduction. I have 300 armor, my badger has 300 armor. I cast chain link. you now only deal 50% of the damage you were dealing to me. Wait; lets kill that badger! The spell damage split to me is reduced by my 90% spell damage reduction (as the damage done to me was reduced by 80% by my badger) Okay, now you NEED a light orb; shit! But... but... that stupid badgers armor aura! at least a light orb will deal insane damage to that badger and he can finally be killed! "Well shit, 80% spell damage reduction will reduce the damage light weapons deal to him; as well as vortex." But wait; you think you have a chance at killing him? Hibernateeeeee! Badger goes to sleep and heals life. Now you have to fight me; I have been attacking you for a while now.

Build Strength: Badger cannot die. Badger cannot be beaten. I cannot be beaten until my badger is also beaten.
Build Weakness: Me

Millions have tried to pick it apart; sadly, it cannot be beaten. I do not doubt that you are a good player; but I also have no doubt that this build will crumble you. to spend the 4 days a month that I have off from work practicing CHA to prove my point valid is almost worth it; but it wont be for another few months that I actually get a chance to play a game with you.

till then broski, let us theorycraft the shit out of this situation; and see if we cant improve your build for you!

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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:05 pm

*EDIT*

When you say things such as "I can still improve your build by a staggering 7-10% with a single small change; makes me a better CHA player than you." Obviously i'm going to call you out for a match. Also seeing as you said you're out of practice, let me ask you this; if your execution is lacking, how does having (maybe) better game theory make you better than me? If you want to theorize or whatever for sure i'm down, as the hypothetical outcomes of builds between two skilled players is something i enjoy doing alot, usually with wrath, infact i was theorizing with him when i came up with this "yiff elemental" build.

Anyways, onto this Yiff build against Your badger build. I played against a variation of it by orimis, but he subbed wind walk over hibernate. I won't claim that he plays it as proficiently as you, but it gave me a grasp of the matchup.

The match went as follows: He came to my mid spawn at start and tried to steal creeps getting two of them. We farmed and i hit 7 for first duel, he was as well. The first duel was extremely close, but i didn't buy ams, because i didn't think id need it :Psilly me. I lost it and he had 50 hp. The second duel he won by just a slightly larger margin (due to badger), but from here i started to outlevel him, hitting 17 for third duel, with him a few creeps short of 16. The third duel i won with 75% hp remaining due to hp pot. Then he went for corruption elemental, i went 20 seconds after him to fire, and after that it was a landslide, i would kill badger in the duration of a divine shield, and i had gem and wind walk's damage was unnoticed. End of the game i was about lvl 33, him lvl 30. score 8-2, most of the duels my hp not going below 50%.

Now there are two crucial differences here, 1- windwalk is used instead of hibernate, and 2- this isn't a build orimis has fine tuned to the degree you probably have.

I expect playing you, we would probably start the first duel me at 7 and you at 8, you'd win it and probably the next two. However i suspect by third duel, my faster movespeed of 410 with boots and totemic endurance, ontop of shockwave's cooldown being about 60% faster than flame strike, combined with elemental mastery i would outlevel you, or at the very least be the same level as you.

From here you would go for elementals, probably corruption, maybe fire. I am not sure how this would go, orimis took a very long time to actually kill elementals, i infact got to fire after he got to corruption and I finished about 25 seconds before him. Worst case scenario, you get your elemental first, however if you at any point go to base, i will be able to take a fire easily in the time it takes you to get back to base and come gank me I have practiced/timed it and at level 19 i can walk from base and do fire guard + fire elemental in 50 seconds, without the walk i can do it in probably 35-40 seconds, with 2/3 hp left.

Now at this point my damage output is higher, and i will be outfarming you quite significantly.

Now at some point mid game in the duel you will spirit link and buff yourself, i will come in range and attack/cast divine when i feel i can use it well. you will hibernate your bear, forcing me to attack you. I shuffle corruption and lightning orb, Lightning orb purges away spirit link. From here i can behave several ways. If hibernate on bear outlasts divine shield, i can run away and get divine off cooldown again or if my damage is enough, i can focus down your bear in about 6-8 seconds. Now it's you versus me, if you use hibernate at all, you're giving me additional divine shields, so you cant use it. I can't cast divine shield as you will hibernate. So it comes down to my damage output and EHP versus yours.

Lategame I have a 1.7 bat with 2.5x crits, a tonne of armor reduction, and a lot of armor/hp myself. You probably have corruption sword rank 2, and immortals boots if you play like ori did. Your hp would be 8000 higher than mine, my damage would however be significantly higher than yours, and subsequently, outfarming you doing archons / rag quests much more quickly. I think duel 5-6 i would start winning, if not then, than for sure duel 7/8.

Thats my 10 cents.

PS. I hope you know that i do miss playing with you, and that posting a build was in part my way of trying to reach you, as i have no other means. It would be awesome if we could play a match, heck it could be all random rapid duels or something. Peace rude boi.
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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:36 pm

Hahaha, I am just trying to work you up, though I am also trying to help you with your build. give it a shot on a range 600 int hero with 2.0 BAT and see how it does. Just give it a try or two; see how it feels. It is a more defensive play; but you have decent offense already.

In your assumptions, there are a few things I would like to point out; then I will give some predictions; and you can take another shot at it; with consideration to what I will be doing.

Major things:
I go fire orb; I do not use corruption. I go for a lava axe fast (for the 325 splash damage) something worth knowing, Once your damage breaks 900 (not including your weapon damage) it is better to use a sword than axe. I am always willing to sell my axe for a sword if I need to. As long as your damage is lower than 900 without a weapon; an axe will provide a larger boost to DPS (Somewhere on this forum, I have the math for this all laid out). I go prismatic shield --> immortals shield; I do not use boots; speed set is one of my last items to upgrade. This boosts my mid game farming a lot, and boosts my late game everything.

... Ormi is a nub for trying to ks creeps with flamestrike; against a shockwave build. Shockwave is low cooldown, great for creep thiefing. You would reach 7 for first duel; I would be 8; yeah. But after the duel, I would be 9 while you are still 7. My rank 5 flamestrike would 1 shot a creep spawn before you reach creeps; making it 10-7. This is a very consistent feature of the build; and the momentum is what carries it so well.

I think you will find that you will need to main level shockwave all game if you want to keep up with me; at least until level 19-21 or so; when ele mastery can really keep up. If you stop leveling shockwave at 5; you will not be able to keep up in levels. My early level advantage is not easily lost. Many good players manage to catch up at level 26-30. I adapt to stay ahead; I will level flamestrike to 15 if I need to to make sure I stay ahead in levels.

I am usually good with elementals, I go for my elemental, and let you go for yours. I will only gank on an elemental if I am 95% sure I will get the gank. Either you would allow me to go first; or I would allow you to go first. I assume you would play smart enough to make a run for it when I am far away and returning to base to heal; as I wouild do against you. Order doesn't matter, because as soon as one of us got it; the other person would.

your damage output may be higher due to elemental mastery; however my survival would be much higher; allowing for me to go all round without having to return to base. Ele mastery on a low survival low ranged int hero; I know you will have to heal; and my 20 seconds of extra farming will make up the difference. Plus, I will have my advantage still at this point; both gold and level. I will gain better exp from kills than you; allowing my lead to last for another 3 rounds; once you actually manage to start outfarming me.

Hmm, your duel scenario has me questioning... you have corruption and light orbs. Light orb will purge me if needed; and deal some damage to my bear. You will need to divine yourself to remove cripple; or fight through the 30% damage reduction. If you attack my bear; yes, I will hibernate him. Should you divine; I can hibernate him, and WW myself. You cannot WW to draw time for your CD; because my bear can see you; and taunt you. I also have 600 range; so kiting is not a good idea; as I will still get free attacks.

If it comes down to a matter of kiting/divine, I will still hibernate to heal and regen, and buy time for another badger cooldown. Your divine doesnt matter, because I will always WW it. If you hope to rely on it; you will have to get truesight. Now you have a corrupt orb, a light orb, boots of speed, and gem of truesight to counter me. Where is your health potion and AMS? I will have them; every duel. If you do get a gem to see me; I can go for an ice staff to disable you whenever divine isnt up. You are dedicated to far more item counters than me.

I agree that the late game would be your strong point; though I have never had a problem from anyone; ever, in the late game. A big thing you need to worry about late game is that you have ele mastery; which lowers your total HP by 10%. My immortals shield will make your ele mastery useless for pvp. It will help you farm; but for pvp it will harm you. Mid game is usually the weakest part of the game for me; before bonus stats racks up; my survival is pretty low due to my infatuation with attack speed. If you can catch up mid game; and pull a very strong late game; you have a chance. I am feeling that you will need to invest too many item slots into countering me to be able to play properly. Also keep in mind that I have never been above buying an eternal set of the war god and kiting for that 4k heal every 40 seconds. This is something that you should consider in tight spots.

Next weekend when I am home; I will see how many practice games I can get it; maybe sunday I will be good enough to have a bout with you. As it is; I dont even remember my proper item builds.

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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:17 pm

It is true I only made level 7 by 1st duel while glorn can make 9 from time to time. His "unpracticed" probably will still make 8 pretty easily. Plus he plays alot more aggressively than me so watch the gank. Also he wouldn't nub out like me and get killed on elemental when it has 150 hp left =(. I think I would have rather had used devine than ww in that game to I often jumped the gun with my ww in duels because I am in patient.
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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:04 pm

I have been trying out different item variations on this build, the problem is most opponents aren't good enough for me to see if my selection is actually more efficient, or not. I would almost always go immortals shield as well on int, but it seemed corruptions shield and burning halo / warriors / speed set along with stats was more than enough on yiff allowing me to get my executioners so early. With corruptions shield and executioners blade, i find i usually just tear through most opponents.

Also for countering items, i would only have a gem and lightning orb max, no reason to carry boots when i have speed set. I also wouldn't have an hp pot.
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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:23 am

Holy shit i havent seen posts like these in ages. I miss you guys. :3
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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:52 pm

Got to love how well balanced these skills are they're not over powered in the slightest. I would take feedback & and magic enhance 2 extra damage any day over bonus attributes 3360 hit points, 1440 mana points, and 24 armor. That is weak sauce give me my 2 extra damage because that is 1337 and will pawn you any day.

Divine shield is also balanced. It counters buffs while allowing you to have buffs on yourself. It counters channels. It counters damage over time. It counters various amount of spells, it even counters other cc's. It counters almost as many combinations that mana vortex does without leaving you completely defenseless. It doesn't suffer from the cast delays other cc's do. It also has a longer duration then your other cc's. Stun field 4 secs, Hex 6 secs, Divine nearly 9 secs.

Both of these skills should be nerfed seriously. Bonus from 240 to 180 and Divine from 8.6 to 5 seconds. Other then that this a pretty good build that can be run on any one. ^_^

Also not to get too far into this but why are so many heroes missing mana? Are we not suppose to 100 base mana from the start? Take heroes that have 25 intelligence having below 200 mana for example. Shouldn't their mana pool be around 250 or something? It just seems like we are being forced to pick the inexpensive abilities over the more expensive because the models are cheated out of the mana they should actually have.



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PostSubject: Re: Yiff Elemental   Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:09 pm

Feedback is very utility based, against int; it is always a decent choice. It however, is not entirely based on added damage.

MEA is a decent argument; however MEA is spell damage. Worth noting that ~30 armor = 50% damage reduction. Physical damage degrades much faster than spell. In fact; very interesting to note... Level 15 MEA has a higher damage output than ele mastery will have at level 32. MEA will early game farm much better than stats will; but will not be as good late game, when 90% spell damage reduction becomes a thing, or if orbs are needed.

Divine, pshhhht; your argument was valid 2 years ago, before it was double nerfed. Sure; divine cannot be "countered" so well. When someone divines; run away! You gain an additional 25% evasion if you are moving while someone tries to attack you. This roll is separate from any evasion you may have; it is 25% damage reduction; arguably. You can also simply run with max MS; and cut the number of attacks made on you by half; 50% damage reduction. You can WW while they divine. You can buy a frost staff, and force them to divine when you want them to (Say, you have a good disable that they are debuffing). Divine has a rather long cooldown at higher levels. Compare this to hex, with a higher CD and shorter duration, buy removes your movement speed, and removes your chance to dodge altogether. Bash/stuns also removes your chance to dodge.

If you wanted to argue that as a single point skill, divine is entirely too powerful; I can kinda agree to that, it offers far too much all-game utility for a single point skill. If you want to argue that the skill is OP when compared to the competition; I would have to gracefully disagree. Many of my builds which used to use divine, had changed to hex. This was because I was optomizing my builds; and hex became a better choice if I was planing to invest more than a point into my defensive.

The mana thing is interesting; However I would like to note that twice now; ALL HEROES have received a boost to their base mana; while int heroes had gotten a nerf, so as that their base mana is the same as all other heroes. There are a handful of exceptions where a specific hero has higher or lower base mana; however that is factored into the balance of the hero.

The game, over the past... 6 years? Has been balanced around the current content. I have made the game easier and easier for all classes to play as broadly as they would like. I have seen many players pick the dark elf with flamestrike and get level 7 for the first duel; then outlevel me mid game. If you dont have enough mana; itemize better. If you want to use a lower mana hero; pick a lower mana skill. It is pretty simple. I can understand that you; who is forced to random, doesnt have that option. To give a passive-intended unit higher mana, so they can be innately strong with passives; while still pulling off faster farmers without having to itemize.. I mean.... Read that a few times and you will understand where I am coming from. Skills like flamestrike, divine, hex, holy light, death pulse.... Need a higher mana cost to remain balanced. Lower mana skills like shockwave... namingly shockwave... Can outfarm flamestrike; due to its lower mana cost and CD. Flamestrike is not intended for lower mana heroes. Start with a staff and mana regen innate?

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