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 A few questions

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Nature_
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PostSubject: A few questions   Sun May 01, 2011 2:06 pm

OK i´m new to this forum so pls correct me if i do something wrong Smile

I want to ask if there are ways to beat an agi/str- Hero in late game. My skills (in almost every fight) are: a nuke (monsuun, magical barrage,...) as defensive skill most likely spiked armour, restore mana and manashield.

At the begining of the game i always craft glittering tiara + boots of speed + mana potion (my peon delivers it so i am extremly fast, the fastest in much cases) then i go farm my spots, usally the one straigth before u, then i farm the opposite spot, wahtever nevermind.
With this method i usally defeat every player in the first duals and in mid game i can still own quite much.

But now in late-game (for example rag mode) it gets harder and harder to kill the agi/str- aura/passive-heros. Well it´s quite obvious: I get mana and attack dmg, if i buy int-items, they get either health, or armour, attack speed and dmg Sad. In addition my spell/s suck more and more the later it gets because there is a end to the increase of the dmg (lvl 15) and life/armour is almost limitless (percentual skills get even stronger because attack speed, life, whatever increases)

Although i can endure almost everything with mana shield + eternal set + immortals shoulder + omega staff, but the later it gets the weaker i get.. compared to how strong my opponents get. And after i had like 7-12 kills in a 1v1 duel an agi-hero kills me... and from that point on i can barely keep up with them...

My question ís waht skills do i have to pick/ what items do i have to get to still own in late games with an int-hero + manashield.

I already fought about some builds using: gift of the magi, defensive skill (hex, windwalk, passive,...) and a nuke (acid rain e.g. or frozen orb (great duel skill!)) but with this builds i can´t have this "super start" at the beginning of the game because gift kind of never trigegrs then i loose too much life then i can´t simply use mana potion and nuke because i ran out of mana nad life too fast (faster then with my other build)

Hoping for some constructive help Smile
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions   Sun May 01, 2011 3:16 pm

It's just the way that str and agi work. Assuming that your opponent has half a mind, they would probably get a lightning sword or stone staff, and then youd be fucked either way. one thing you should learn to do is finish the game before you have to worry about it. be agressive while they cant touch you, so then you get far enough ahead that they cant touch you when you would orignally be getting owned.
pretty much what it comes down to is something that a lot of new players, including myself, struggle with. and that is pushing an advantage while you have it. if your lvl 14 and they are 11, you should be on their side taking their creeps and pushing them back to their base so that they cannot level, then before you know it you're lvl 16 and they are still 11. its easy to say, but it takes a lot of practice to do. instead of worrying about how to change the build to fit the situation, change the situation to fit the build, understand?
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions   Sun May 01, 2011 7:32 pm

Personally, I would change the build. Not because I believe it to be a bad build, but because a set-up like that has been used millions of times. It is alright; in public games it is good. It is easy to beat though because of the whole "eggs in a basket" thing. Especially when contrasted to what stomp talked about, "Pushing the advantage." Against almost any good player, your build has no superior farming. Auto attacking with arthas, I can hit 7 for the first duel. I have a few builds, where I only hit 5 for the first duel, but will beat a level 7 easily. "pushing the advantage" is a lot more important than casting your farmer more times, with help from mana restore.
http://chao.forumclan.net/t1201-glorn-s-guide-to-early-game
that link might help you out with a lot of things you may not know; and a lot about pushing advantages is mentioned.
http://chao.forumclan.net/t1093-armor-breakdown
That link discusses armor in depth; something that plays a huge role in late game, and has a huge outcome on a mana shield build. Mana shield is a static value per level.

MATH MATH MATH MATH

At level 32, it is what, a 5:1 ratio? Not terrible, no. Max level is 6:1, roughly. At level 40 though, with spiked armor... your HP should be worth a lot more than that. Every 33 armor you have, increases your effective HP by 100%. Spiked armor is 65; lets call that 200%. you already have 100% of your HP; so, with spiked armor as your only form of armor, your HP is 300% of its normal value. HP is easier to obtain than mana, even as an int hero. To give more support though, we will assume a player has equal mana and life.
Say, 10,000 life, 10,000 mana. With mana shield, at level 32, that mana is worth 50,000 life. With spiked armor at level 15, your 10,000 life is worth 30,000 life.

Those are some silly values, but I will show you how they change.

with some late game int items, you should be able to have a solid 20,000 HP, 200 armor (with spiked armor) and 20,000 mana. This sounds reasonable by my accounts.
your 20,000 HP is now worth 7X its value from armor. Keep in mind, you have 100% as a base, every 33 armor increases it 100% more. 20,000X7=140,000 effective HP. your mana on the other hand (max level MS is 6.25) is only a 6.25:1 ratio. Pretty simple, 20,000X6.25=130,000 effective HP.

That is roughly the turn around point.

Using the above knowledge, think about how late game usually progresses. What is easier to buy, life, or mana? Assuming you wanted 300 armor, you could easily get it; giving you a lot more HP. In terms of mana shield, all you can do is increase your mana. At the above point in the game, life is much cheaper to get, easier to get, and you will gain more survivablity per point of life than point of mana.

My overall suggestion:
Learn to use Terraptus ultimate
Terraptus can turn your 20,000 mana into 20,000 life; giving you an additional 10,000 life at the above point in the game. As the game progresses, that value will also increase. More importantly, is the bonus you can gain from mana regen; which adds up a lot faster than life regen.

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PostSubject: Re: A few questions   Sun May 01, 2011 7:35 pm

Many people suggest lightning talons but in practice it kind of fails about the time that they get immortals shoulders. I've found with personal experience your better off with the 25-30% chance to do 2.5 X critical's because as the game progresses they will burn through mana shield faster. However in his case it may be the wise decision as he is using restore mana. Now from what I can tell your probably falling into the same trap that every other mana shield user falls into and that is the severe lack of attack speed in your build. You need to balance your damage and attack speed so the game flows better for you. In your case I would suggest to get rid of mana restore as in most cases it is simply over kill. I agree it synergies better in a mana shield build but if your plan is to straight rush shell of the mana goddess you will find that endurance aura will work out better. Other wise if you wish to keep restore balance yourself between attack speed and damage. Since your most likely farming faster then everyone else did it ever occur to you to buy some sets? Power + Totemic sure it doesn't give you the damage you would like but between the buffs it gives to your allies and attack speed its more then worth the consideration.
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions   Sun May 01, 2011 11:01 pm

well careful, if you do the math on that the dps from lightning talons would be a hell of a lot more dps to a mana sheild than any of the other weapons, or even any other item. the only exception being stone staff, but they are a close match. it is because lightning talons destroy 90 mana on every attack. lets figure 3 attacks a second at max attack speed, so 270 mana a second, lets assume we're level 40 for this, so 6.25 x 270 = 1697.5 effective health points damaged per second. just from the destroy. if you want to bring the crits into this and total the dps, if you had this you would probably have 1200 extra damage and 150 base damage lets say. thats 1350 damage. lets attack for 10 seconds. 10 seconds x 3 attacks per second = 30 attacks. 30 attacks x 10% chance to crit = 3 crits. 3 crits(1350 damage x 3) = 12150 damage per 10 seconds just from crits. 27 attacks(1350 damage) = 36450 damage per 10 seconds for base attack. so 36450 + 12150 = 48600 damage per 10 seconds. 48600 damage / 6.25 = 7776 mana killed per 10 seconds / 10 = 778 mana killed per second + 270 from the destroy on sword = 1058 mana killed per second.
lets compare this with the stats of, lets say frost talons, because of their amazing crit. lets stick with the 1350 damage.
so 30 x 30% = 9 crits. 9(1350 x 2.5) = 30375 damage from crits per 10 seconds. 1350 x 21 = 28350 damage from basic attack per 10 seconds. 30375 + 28350 = 58725 damage per 10 seconds / 10 = 5873 damage per second / 6.25 = 940 mana destroyed per second total. lightning talons > better crits.
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions   Mon May 02, 2011 1:17 am

I'm glad you can do the math but in the case of mana shield critical's potentially burn more mana then purge does. Purge is forever set at a specific number in the case of talons its 90 mana but a critical strike only grows. At about level 4 mana shield decreases the damage you take by a factor of 5 by that point I'm dealing 3000-5000 damage in critical strikes. Even at 3000 damage each critical is taking away 600 mana. Maybe I'm biased but from my experience I have burned through mana shield quicker with a stone talon, or fire talon, or frost talon + ring then I do with lightning talon + ring.

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PostSubject: Re: A few questions   Mon May 02, 2011 2:12 am

a 2.5X crit, isnt dealing 3.5X damage, keep that in mind. when you have 1000 damage, and crit for 2500, 1000 of that would have happened if the crit happened or not.The true damage added is 1500. Now lets compare a 10% for 3X, on 1000 damage, that would be an increase of 2000. 2000/10 is 200 damage added per attack, pretending that procs arent pseudo-random. 25% chance to add 1500 damage, 1500/4= 375, extra damage per attack.
200 extra damage per attack vs
375 extra damage per attack
pseudo-random:
if anyone knows about pseudo-random proc chances, they will know that the 10% is actually greater than 10%. Blizzard has a cool system, where if you have a chance to proc; and dont proc on attack, then there is an increased chance to proc on the following attack, based on the base proc chance.
Example: 10% chance to crit, you miss? 10%+(10% of 10)=11. You miss again? 11%+(10% of 11)=12.1%. Continue this pattern.


that math aside, lets look at 90 mana burned per attack... that is, 90 mana lost, then 90 damage dealt. 90+(90/5)=108 mana burned per attack
Now, lets add the crit damage that light talons offer.
108+(200/5)=108+40=148 mana burned per attack
Ranged Units: 81+(81/5)=97+40=137 mana burned per attack
VS
375/5=75 mana burned per attack

148 is greater than 75.

That is with a 1000 damage auto attack though; slightly unfair for true late game player. Let is assume you have 2000 damage then, shall we? without an axe, 2000 is pretty prime damage. With this, we will also assume a max level MS, with a 6.25 conversion rate
Light talons
the 90 purged damage remains the same. the 90 spell damage from that is converted to 90/6.25=~15. The 200 bonus crit damage per attack is brought to 400. 400/6.25=64.5. 90+14+65=~170 mana burned per attack
Raged=81+(81/6.25)=94+65=159
Fire, ect
the 375 crit damage is doubled, to 750. 750/6.25=120

Again, Light talons will hover around 170 mana burned per attack
fire/stone will hover around 120 damage per attack.

If you want to bring a secondary crit into this, the light talons would gain more from additional crits. If you want to bring an axe into this, dont.

Just for shits:
4000 auto attack damage
Light talons
90+14+130=234
Ranged: 94+130= 224
Fire/stone
1500/6.25=240

So, as you can see... In order for the math to work out in your favor, you would need to have about 4000 auto attack damage.

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Last edited by Glorn2 on Mon May 02, 2011 4:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions   Mon May 02, 2011 3:39 am

I love all this math craft I really do however your forgetting two key factors; Evasion and Ranged Attacks. Ranged attacks will not purge when you critical strike. With evasion you would prefer the more often critical buffer especially when it has nearly 2 X the chance of occurring and only .5 less X damage.
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions   Mon May 02, 2011 3:50 am

we were leaving those things out for the sake of the math. you can argue it all you want, and believe it all you want, and maybe, just MAYBE, if you believe hard enough, for long enough, the numbers might slightly change into what you want them to be, but until then, with glorns help, my case is rested.
TROLLOLOLOL. jk.
but honestly i didnt know about that ranged thing... interesting.


Last edited by stomp2anewbeat on Mon May 02, 2011 4:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions   Mon May 02, 2011 3:51 am

Evasion does not matter in the math because it is a static value no matter how many times evasion procs. this is why we find the average damage increased per attack; so we can later add in things like evasion; and compare it to life regeneration.

Point well noted with ranged attacks though; that it will not purge when there is a crit. I will go update my math; it wil lower all damage from the purge and the purged amount per hit.

With that taken into account, it will still not be until 3600+ or so damage, that the crit from your fire weapon will be dealing enough damage.

The strongest argument you can make to support your cast is that "well, once the mana is gone, you still have to kill regular HP" which can be counter argued with "purge counter mana regen".

I really do not enjoy typing out all of this math; but it is better than people assuming the wrong thing because someone said on a whim that it was the right thing.

In terms of an entire game, and the entire outcome of a game, there are so many other choices that could lead to victory; and I would never say that you should use a light sword over a fire. This is simply the math to explain the effectiveness against a mana shield user in a 1v1 situation.

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PostSubject: Re: A few questions   Mon May 02, 2011 1:34 pm

LOL screw the OP off topic dicussion are funny as fuck.
Dude mana shield takes like no brains at all. First you need Immortals shoulders duh winning Basketball Basketball Basketball dribbling the b-ball for a second then you need auras increasing your damage move speed whatever gets you off affraid affraid affraid eeew dont do that shit as im replying you sick fuck and you want evasion shroud of theif god and off course a weapon every thing as is filler after that. Thats your item build as for skill build just through hex or divine for a defensive and you will always win. If you lose with that you fucken suck so uninstall warcraft.

Weapon
Immortals Shoulders
Auroric Set
Shroud of Thief God
+600 stats
+600 stats
Either tome whore or sel shroud and make immortals armor for the fuck of it.

lol! Terraptus Rofl deeze people be too fucken dum to buy armour its why they go mana sheild duh winning lol!
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions   Mon May 02, 2011 2:17 pm

hmm ok.
I think i´ll now be able to use manashield a little more effectifly... still lacking the attack speed/armour in late game but by keeping them low level i´ll win.. probably..

About terrapetus: what items should i take?? (assuming i´m an int-hero) armour is the main important thing there right? so no shoulders but shield?

And again the question how to fight an agi-hero? Well if he´s not noob he starts quite well and then he trys to reduce the distance of our lvls.. how can i beat him late game? with more mana i´ll just be having more live (with terrapetus) but his armour attack speed/dmg will still increase the whole game while i am only getting more life and more dmg. So i´ll lack either the armour or the attack speed in late game. Is my only option to camp their creeps and "use my advantage"?...

Imagine this: Start: a full int-nuker going for cloak of the unseen + an agi-passive that relys on avatar. What can i do now if the nuker is protecting the agi and so he develops untroubled and doesn´t die. for the first duel the agi hero uses wind walk(e.g.) and lets the nuker kill the enemys, maybe he´s also supporting him. At this point my only chance is to surpass the nuker and go for the agi right? (not in duel so i use my advantage to keep him low level) Otherwise i´d be pretty f***** because int heros simply can´t keep up with agi/str at late game right? (assuming that they are on the same lvl [35] with almost the same items [fitting well with the remaining skills])
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions   Mon May 02, 2011 4:04 pm

Easy to win with in. If you can get 2 ganks during the game, you will win. If you rely on duels alone, you will lose.

That simple.

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PostSubject: Re: A few questions   Mon May 02, 2011 4:16 pm

^^ Yeah Pretty Much^^ You can run around to wear down their avatar but what your talking about is team work and team work vs no team work will likely win unless they suck. You still get shoulders you just get armor before hand is all. Imagine your playing a intell hero without mana shield that is how you make a terraptus build the only difference is you get shoulders still.
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