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 Tide of editing

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baneofdeath
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PostSubject: Tide of editing   Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:16 pm

For years the editers of cha have changes teh shape of the map, added colors skills and heroes. Some of us have been distracted by the flashing lights and colors long enough to ingnore the path this map is taking which i would liken to the adventures of replication of aged monotony. Yes there is the addition of colors and map layout changes, bells, whistles different skill designs and a whole load of stuff i dont give a flying load of donkey shit about.
What do i mean about aged monotony? well the game is focused on farming and pvping via duels, despite what glorn may thing about making the map more "pvp oriented," its stil the same basic game progression, the different offensives have changed, but really most of them do the same thing. Most aoe farming skills are interchangeable, and most of the dmg incresing abilities do much the same thing just in different ways, some being less effective then others. Yes, more skills have been added, but previous ones havent been fixed to match up to the new way the game is shaped. Crit master sucks, Death strike sucks, Mark of the warrior is basically teh same thing as death strike, and alot of the skills in my opinon are re-skinned versions of older skills. Look at Seed of corruption in the new edit, besically the same idea as parasite, the soul siphon ability, the same shit as locusts just in a different form.
Glorn has made it clear that he doesnt want this to become dota which is why alot of the suggestions to mirror skills in there have been turned away. But to that i say this. Why is dota a proffesionally recogonized game and cha is not? because dota is doing somthing different. Alot of the items are intercangable and aside from having different stat values none of them really do anything cool aside from the unique shield and staff functons. The items in my opinion have to be re-looked at and we ned some people to devise some interesting on use affects for the items. THe terrain issues and problems could be fixed if we would actually talk about it. But glorn just kinda does his own thing and we just follow him around like we have no voice.
Glorn, i think that for being the only one with the commitment, and the balls to actually step up and edit the map is fantasic. Im not saying that i could do a much better job because realy i dont think it is a task for one person. I think that instead of just preceeding along the same route of adding skills items and heros that dont really add anything to the dynamic of the game we need to fall back and evaluate the issues that havent been looked at. Standard, bland items with re-arranged stats to give the impression of a different item, terrain that lacks a pathing aspect and encourages people to sit back and farm like clueless retards for 4 minutes with duels to break the pattern every once in a while...
YOu may just look at this and think back to our games in the new edit, where i complained alot and maybe you will jsut dismiss this. However, i have talked to alot of people who feel as well as i do that the new edit of cha is a step backwards and really alot less fun to play then the current one. Take this for whatever you will but just know that im not against you.
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PostSubject: Re: Tide of editing   Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:45 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Tide of editing   Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:47 pm

YOu could also view it as a valid concern of hte map, because if you read on i actuall compliment glorn and bring up points about how the map could be improved but yet again in typical H fasion you ignore everything and jus go for the simple reply so you dont have the delve into an acutal discussion
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PostSubject: Re: Tide of editing   Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:05 am

you really want me to go into what you said? fine.
baneofdeath wrote:
Yes there is the addition of colors and map layout changes, bells, whistles different skill designs and a whole load of stuff i dont give a flying load of donkey shit about.
If you dont give a shit about it, dont bring it up. That is just asking for someone to argue against you. aka trolling.

baneofdeath wrote:
well the game is focused on farming and pvping via duels, despite what glorn may thing about making the map more "pvp oriented,"
you just contradicted yourself.

baneofdeath wrote:
Most aoe farming skills are interchangeable, and most of the dmg incresing abilities do much the same thing just in different ways, some being less effective then others. Yes, more skills have been added, but previous ones havent been fixed to match up to the new way the game is shaped. Crit master sucks, Death strike sucks, Mark of the warrior is basically teh same thing as death strike, and alot of the skills in my opinon are re-skinned versions of older skills. Look at Seed of corruption in the new edit, besically the same idea as parasite, the soul siphon ability, the same shit as locusts just in a different form.

While i agree some skills are interchangeable, they are all very situational. if they were all interchangeable, there would be only 1 spell, because glorn, as well as myself, hates redundancy, and wouldnt add so many spells that are exactly the same.

baneofdeath wrote:
The items in my opinion have to be re-looked at and we ned some people to devise some interesting on use affects for the items. THe terrain issues and problems could be fixed if we would actually talk about it. But glorn just kinda does his own thing and we just follow him around like we have no voice.

If you were online when we were actually beta testing the new map, you would know that a lot of us actually put input into that map, and glorn listened to us. The only person who follows glorn around with no voice is shankz (sorry shankz, but its true). as of right now there are no issues with the terrain that i have seen, the only "issues" that you are probably bringing up is that you dont like the new terrain, because change is bad.

baneofdeath wrote:
However, i have talked to alot of people who feel as well as i do that the new edit of cha is a step backwards and really alot less fun to play then the current one.

while i agree that i do not like the new edit, the reason is because its a new thing, and no one likes change. It isnt a step backwards, as it shows new skills and new concepts that really havent been used in the game, such as knockback.

To sum things up, this is you complaining as usual about things you dont like, and asking people to argue against you. Hence, i refer you to the picture in my previous post.

<3 H
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PostSubject: Re: Tide of editing   Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:11 am

IF it was just me complaining i would say somthing along the lines of.

FUCK THIS IMBA MAP I HATE THE NEW EDIT BLAHHH IT SUCKS GO DIE

Well this isnt going to to be resolved... ever. Both of us stubbornly are going to stick to our sides no matter what. I respect waht you say and agree that my arguments had a few falacies. BUt i felt it was somthing that had to be said and having done that i've nothing more to say then, good day.

While i do complain abot alot of stuff alot of it is just when im bored i say random shit, but the nagging concerns i have arent just simple complaints and to be honest i only hav ea few of those, this being one of them. you mistook some of the things i said but i really dont want to draw this out so i refer to my above statement,

Cheers!
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PostSubject: Re: Tide of editing   Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:07 am

Actually to be honest, I agree with H here. When Revolutions came out I fucking despised it, Glorn will probably remember me bitching about it on a regular basis. Then I played it for awhile and got used to it; I played the old map awhile back and couldn't imagine playing that over Revolutions. I'm sure it'll be the same for the new edit once everyone changes their shit.
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PostSubject: Re: Tide of editing   Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:10 am

^^ Epic said my biggest argument.

I have been with CHA since slayerdragon started it. Same terrain for 3 years. The biggest changes over 3 years were... uhhh...

The question mark boss.
No more double ava
No more full reinc every time.
....
....
Fire ward was nerfed an edit after it was buffed...
....
....
3 years.

In my years of editing... every 6 months or so, I come out with a big edit. Everyone hates it, until the public has had it for a month. Then everyone loves it. We reflect back on my old edits, and labs old edits, and laugh about how primitive they were.


I mean, how can you "not like the route CHA is going" and then argue that "It is the same old shit it has always been."

Mostly, let me ask you this...

Do you pick some skills over other? (yes you do)
Do you pick some items over other? (yes you do)
Do you cast spells in a given order? (Yes you do)
Do you pick certain heroes for builds? (Yes you do)

If it is important enough to pick 1 skin over another, because it has 2 more starting int; which is EXACTLY enough to cast your specifically picked farmer for that build, 1 extra time before returning to heal... Well, I dont think that is too generic. There is a thought process put into something as simple as a hero who is 90% the same as another hero. That 10% is what makes the difference to you though.

In DOTA, people have item builds, and hero strats, right? "I am gonna go top lane!" (I dont know what that means) or "I'm getting first blood and pushing mid" ect ect. There are various strats to every game.

You can say the game is focused on almost anything, and be right.

You can win the game from over aggressive ganking.
You can win from farming
from applying pressure and taking creeps
From avoiding all ganks on melee
from always picking ranged with a slow
from holding out until late game
from power leveling with 3 farmers
from buying bombs
From summons
From Flamestrike
from "You countered me bro"


I mean, there are quite a few strats that will score you an ass ton of wins. there is no proper strat though.

Considering how easy it is to kill someone else... What do you suggest I do to make the game more PVP geared? Hell, I have been trying for a long time. Sadly, what seems to have worked the best, is the 3 times I lowered the duel timer.

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PostSubject: Re: Tide of editing   Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:49 pm

More of waht i said was just how over a long period of time ive been trying to make suggestions for different ways to change the map, most of which have been ignored
I like where cha has come from, but it just feels like every edit is just more skills and heros, how about more item effects? more elaborate terrain, as you have admited as lacking becase as you put it you arent hte best terrainer. Sure maybe i came off a bit stronger then i intended, but ya know... im not perfect.

IDk, again i actually complimented your efforts so dont forget that, but i jsut felt it nessesary to point out of the trend it looks like hte map is taking, which seems like just a bit too much repetition.
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PostSubject: Re: Tide of editing   Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:27 pm

without having played much dota historically, how does DoTa today differ from Dota of 5 years ago? has the game play really evolved any differently then CHA and if so how?
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PostSubject: Re: Tide of editing   Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:00 pm

I have askd that question; and to my knowledge.. at some point... either 4 or 5 years ago; Icefrog "revamped" DOTA. Some suggest that it was this massive overhaul that really made DOTA into the game that it is today. This is just something I have been told by a couple of people, and have no idea if it is true or not.

You could aruge that my revamping of CHA was similar. I mean; it was after revolutions went public that the game picked up a lot in terms of pubs. Something a lot of people dont take into account is how popular CHA is with pubs. Sure, our clan might be small, and pubs might suck at the game... But the forum gets 50-60 new users a month; the game is top 15 played on US-East (like, top 30 on asia though).

I am really not sure either, what you are looking for in terms of massive changes to gameplay. Would it not be CHA anymore? It seems every edit, people tell me "these are massive changes, I dont know if I will ever learn it all" and then you look at the build board from 2009, and realize that those builds still work today.

I try hard to keep some stuff the same, while broadening the aspects of gameplay. In my opinion, more people complain about all of the changes, compared to the lack of changes. I mean, every time i change anythin at all, you tell me that I change too many things. This then rolls back to what epic said... No one likes change. Every major edit I come out with, I get all sorts of mixed reviews on everything. I get told it is the best terrain yet, worst ever (I know I am a bad terrainer). I get told that X build is unusable now, I have someone else using the same build, amazed how it holds up almost the same as it used to. Within 2 months, everything is settled, and people have a hard time playing an older edit properly.

Anyone remember when I lowered the time between duels down to the 4:30 that it is now? People went from hitting level 11, to hitting level 6. For the first 3 weeks, people claimed that it was impossible to hit 8 for the first duel. Now people can hit 9 for it. I didnt change EXP gains or creep spawns between those 2 edits. In fact, I took mana away from people.


Edit:
I dont want to discourage your thinking; but, what solutions do you have to offer?

Items, CHA has more items than any other game I have ever seen on WC3. the take up about 30 seconds of the preload time. Sure, there are only about 15 different "Main stats" but getting them in various quantities is pretty important. Look at WoW; arguably the most popular game ever invented... they only have about a dozen different stats; but you need to find the perfect ratio that fits yours needs. There are only like 30 item abilities in the game, (auras count) but still; they are situational and unique.

Look at heroes, and skills. We have easily, 100 different, viable, thought out builds. How many heroes does DOTA have? What is important about CHA, is that variety. The 8 billion possible builds; that allows you to make whatever you are in the mood for.

Farming/pvp: As said above, it is all based on your playstyle. There are an asston of strats you can use to win. Different people master different strats. Sure level is important; but that level is based on your ability to play your strat against your opponent.

Terrain is bland. Making it spicy isnt gonna affect gameplay. there is an asston of uphill/downhill in the new edit, which DOES affect gameplay. If your biggest complaint is terrain though... well... thanks?

Boss fights: Considering this is an arena, I think the boss fights are a little entertaining. There are some things that work better on some bosses. In the new edit, skills have been mixed up a little, and the archons scale in difficulty and gold. Still though; this is an arena, not an RPG.

What CHA is based on:
450 items
6 item slots
8,000,000,000 builds
10 basic strats

~22,000,000,000,000 ideas.
Realisticly.. 100 items(per class), 6 slots, 100 buils, 10 strats... 600,000 possibilities.

Still though... I mean, the basis of CHA has always been the same. What exactly is it that you would like changed?

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PostSubject: Re: Tide of editing   Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:43 am

I guess i'm the only one that likes the new setup:? it'sa lil messy but greens and browns dont hurt my eyes as much and the high ground low ground has brought back a lot of the older edit's charm in terms of variety while at the same time, keeping the arena at a stable and manageable size. the new setup:? different. Save glorn I guess i've sat through the largest number of edits and change aint really a bad thing so I cant say the same as most of you. The new map (at least the most recent version I have {I assume it's the same}) gave me a good first impression
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