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 The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"

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epicpowda11
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PostSubject: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:37 pm

Anyways, a member came to me the other night as slightly annoyed because he was testing some wonky theories that could play out nicely if worked on; I being mid game and a bit of a douche at times kind of shrugged this off till it happened to me the following night. Now, if you do not agree you do not have to abide by this in any way, shape or form. This is simply a request. Many of us come up with some really strange ideas sometimes, some work, some fail miserably, and some just seem to fail because we haven't figured out how to properly use these as of yet.

I really don't care who you are, but when you play a build completely out of your element for the first time and its a bit abstract your not going to be at the top of your game. That being said, most of us when we have these ideas and want to try them out make it fairly clear that this is what this game is about. However, lately it seems among some people that this goes completely ignored, or this is an opportunity to completely wipe the floor and raise self esteem. Now as I said above, if completely obliterating your opponent every game with the same 3 builds is what your here for, so be it. And as I said, this is more a request.

When someone says "I have a new idea I want to test out" this shouldnt mean grabbing restore mana and a farmer and just running around ganking their weak build into nothing. Sure, you could argue that it isn't much of a build if you can't survive this, but lets face it when you play something for the first time you don't know the proper set ups, creeping techniques and so on. So our request is to simply take it easy, restrain from the hardcore ganking and hell maybe even test something really strange out yourself.

As Glorn explained to Miki when he got let back into the clan; Clan games are not about winning every single game, they are for learning and coming up with special new builds. If you simply play to win you will never progress. I have no problem playing tournament style matches in clan games, don't get me wrong. But not when your trying to figure something out. If the person just simply wants to play and not test, go crazy. If they stipulate that they have a new idea which needs to be tuned and tested, don't play to melt their face off, have a nice casual game so they can get their shit together, see what works what doesn't, what they need to do to make the build good etc.

Now I know there's a bunch of you that will scoff at this, and that's fine. But, if you do not embrace this idea just be ready to play like that game and game out. Remember kids, what goes around comes around, and just because you have 3 builds your golden with today doesn't mean one day you won't want to experiment. When that day comes and you've burned bridges don't bitch Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:21 pm

Trolling your topic really wordy no pictures so you know I only skimmed it. I find it funny whenever somebody says Im trying something new but then turn around and run a build that is so god damn fucken familair that you would swear there is a fucken guide written some where. The thing is when you lie and say your trying something new which in the past is code for Im stealing a build from someone else you kind of reap what you sow.
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:30 pm

You kind of missed the point, but hey alright.
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:13 pm

Yea I hate reading cliff notes???
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:13 am

I have a few things I’d like to say on this and a few other subjects as well:

I would like to start with an acknowledgement of my past behavior. My attitude and my interaction with members of this community have been regrettably not so good at times. This has been for the vast, vast majority, if not all, my own doing. The word insecure has been tossed around in regards to this and I admit that that word is appropriate in describing the origin of more of these situations than I necessarily care to admit. There are some who I owe more direct apologies to I suppose but for now I’d like to apologize to anyone who has been offended or put off to any degree by my actions. I have been petty at times and as a result have displayed disregard for the feelings and general well being of others and I regret that. I know that all the ill will I’ve caused won’t be fixed by this single post (nor should it), and that I will continue to receive justified flak for my past actions. For my part, I’d like to learn from and engage the community in a more constructive manner than I have in the past.

What Epic has brought up is important because it is built upon the notion of criticism and the ability to accept criticism in a positive manner—the larger goal being learning I believe. I have been playing this game rather consistently for a number of years now and nearly all that time with the public (thank you v-bot). What Epic mentioned I’ve been guilty of myself. I used to run a single build over and over because it worked—it wasn’t a great build at all but for the public it worked. For the past year or so I began to use other builds, random, experiment somewhat etc. I look back now and the change sadly was probably less a desire to learn higher levels of play than the general public getting overall better making my overused build less viable. Since that time it’s been plain that higher levels of play within this game is a vivid reality and only lately have I had any real desire to attempt learning play beyond the public.

Epic also mentioned what has become something of a trend in public games I’ve noticed throughout my time playing there—a build (and its minor variations) becoming overused and “abused” if that word applies. It has become, at least for me, increasingly annoying and lately has made me resent playing at all. Not necessarily because I lose games in these situations more than normal (I do hate losing but I’ve gotten used to that lately via CHAO Very Happy) but more when I come across such a build I’d rather kill myself than bother with the game. Lately the build has been ranged intel/flamestrike/manashield … even writing about it pisses me off lol. This being the case the value of the clan becomes increasingly clear—that all I can expect from continuing public play are these overused builds and frustration. I’ve been playing for so long and I’d really like to try and play better if for no other reason than to reach the limits of my ability, which brings me to this point—the need to man up, admit my error, and behave constructively. One of my bigger regrets is expressing these sentiments before and when given the chance not taking you all seriously.

I’d also like to say a few things about my drinking. Frankly, it is as pathetic as it seems and not much more than that. I mention this because quite honestly the greater part of my interactions with you all on vent and also during the game have been done so when I’ve been drunk (or more often a few drinks past shitfaced lol) and I’m really embarrassed by that because I must come off as a giant fool. And by doing so what that really implies is lack of respect and that is not something I’d like to project. After posting this I will try not to play clan games drunk—a bit odd that I need to say that but that seems to be the reality at this point, sadly. And not to be preachy—just a friendly warning—these things start out fun of course but if you’re not careful, and normally without your knowledge, it quickly moves from fun to not so fun. Awkward subject I know, at least for me, but something I think I needed to say.

In closing, I believe what Epic has touched upon is an important subject—learning high play which I think starts with being able to accept and apply constructive criticism. I’d like to try and hopefully my future actions will speak to this effect and thank you all for your patience.

-Miki
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:44 am

Firstly, well written Miki.

Secondly, I don't know about anyone else but personally when I am testing a build I ask the person I am playing to try and hard counter it. Playing someone who just sits on their side of the map with bland abilities doesn't really test a build. I mean if you want to see how well it farms before the first duel without threat of a gank/spawn steal. Single player works amazing (unless you want to load).

Third, I agree that gloating about a win over a player who is testing something is ridiculous. But so is gloating over any win in general. When a weaker player beats a stronger player, usually means one of two things, they were testing something or they randomly got hard countered. In general weaker players never outplay stronger players in this type of game setting, because the game really is pretty simple, farm creeps, kill heroes, win duels etc...

Lastly, once again I don't know about everyone else but I play every game to win. I am not known to kite around for 10 minutes to win a duel. (I have never kited over a minute or two in a normal game). But, some players don't even buy pots for normal games because they consider it trying to hard to win. Personally I think things like buying pots or slight kiting/ spawn stealing in normal games is perfectly fine.

I wouldn't want anyone to go easy on me ever and I would expect people who play me to take the match semi-seriously.
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:05 am

Joox does bring up a very good point.

My opinion:

What really pisses me off, is what didnot mentioned. When someone says "Let me test a new build" so I go ahead and pick a shitty ass build, and turn on the TV to something worth watching. Then I look, and see that they have flamestrike, mana restore, and mana shield (This happens 1 outta 5 times I hear "lemme test something"). When I see that, it really pisses me off. This is something territo will do 9 outta 10 games. Tuus will copy a build from me, charge, epic, or yeti, and say the same as well.

I think that both sides of this equation have been... naughty... And this is why so many people try to win during test games.

Something I tell all the people who ask for training from me is that winning means nothing. You need to accept that you are just playing a game and the outcome of a match doesn't matter. At the end of the match, if you can reflect back and say, "Well, if I pushed hard after the second duel, when I had a 6 level advantage, I could have won." And a decent opponent would agree with that. Usually, after any type of closer game, me and my opponent discuss all of the turning points in the game. And it doesnt matter who won or lost, at all. Sometimes, the person who won made many more mistakes than the person who lost; and in my opinion, that makes them a worse player.

Back to the comment Joox made...

I feel as though you should NOT give special treatment to people who want to test a build. Against people like epic, yeti, charge, ect, when they want to test a build, I pick a generic build, and play a generic game... But I play it very well. However, I have the foresight to pay attention to everything they do, so I can give them tips during and after the game, of ways to improve their ideas. It is pretty silly to try to test something against someone who is using a joke build, and not playing aggressive.

With that said, a person testing a build should think of what their build entails. If I see you with a rank 3 shockwave, so you can max out evasion, holy armor, and blood bath... Damn straight I am gonna kill you before you reach level 20. If you are running a pure gank build, and claiming it is a test build, expect your opponent to be a little upset with your build choice. Use common sense.

Best bet:
Ask your opponent to use a build they are good with, but not to play too aggressively. That way you can see how your build pans out. Sure, you will be underleveled, and get your ass kicked. This is why you test it 5-6 times and get some feedback on it.

When I train people, I make sure they are behind in levels; a lot... always. Why? If you are always fighting an uphill battle, it is hard as hell. When the field is level, this makes the game much easier in comparison. If you are testing a new build and have 4 levels on your opponent, really, you should end the game and restart. You need to play your build under harsh conditions if you want to see what it can do.

****************************************************************
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:50 pm

The main thing for build testing with me is finding out if the build can farm at all... usually ill use 2 skills im comfortable with say an ult and a late game and switch up my mid game farmer like... grabbing monsoon (which i have only used 4 times) and throwing on BB. or i will use something exotic like try to use Endurance aura and Nova to farm. Obviously i dont' want you to dick around completely but if you are gonna box me in completely if i fall behind its not really a test. i also don't believe in heavy ganking before level 12. One gank is fine. Two is alright but if youa re on my side of the map during a test game the whole game i will be pissed.

IF ITS A TEST GAME.
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:01 pm

i have to agree with charge 100%. When i test a new build, i will have at least 2 skills that i am comfortable using. If im testing something with someone, after the second duel, feel free to gank. just dont live on my side of the map. as for potions and such, yes, im not a big potion player, so obviously i dont like people using potions, but that doesnt mean you cant. Hell, in tournament matches, if i see that they are needed, ill be grabbing pots. but in casual games, im usually listening to music, watching tv, and talking with one of my roommates while doing homework, and bullshitting with people on vent. as for stealing creep spawns, go for it. Yeah, i will say "really?" but that doesnt mean stop. the only thing that pisses me off more than anything in a testing game, is ganking before the second duel, or someone living on my side of the map, especially when you already have 5+ levels on me. like everyone has said, i dont want a lax game, i want to test my build; but ganking me non-stop and not letting me farm really isnt a test of a builds true ability. i play games for two reasons (outside of tournament matches) to test something out, and/or to have fun.

that's all i have to say on the subject
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:26 pm

Glorn,
I will not deny I try an occasional build that somebody else has made, however I usually do not say that I need to test something. Most of the time, i make some kind of random build and I find out only later that it had been made (I would say most GOOD builds have already been made at one point... [And I would like to leave out any builds which i have played in a tourney]) Furthermore after BN i have rarely played you in a 1v1... ( compared to the number of games we did play and the time I was in BN was about half the duration I've been in chao...) so you honestly do not have the right to say what you say if you actually are talking about me ''trying something'' vs you.

I'm sorry, but I just find it offensive... kinda. Also, the fact that people are still picking on Territo even though he usually can't see nor hear what you have said makes me sad. Why can't people just drop it? This is very off topic but it has to be said.

To sum up everything really quickly, every person has their own way of tackling playing a new build and every person expects different things from the other player to be honest there is nothing special to do vs the player, if the opponent is a dick... it happens. However youi can not Q.Q about someone playing like they do... If you play vs venom and expect a peaceful match you just took the wrong opponent for that.
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:49 pm

aye... I thought i made a post... so weird b/c i actually think i responded to this post w/ at least 10=12 lines XP neway what i said before was that there were two common misconceptions that many people who have been "thinking about the game" make. It's really easy to make them imo and this is just from my experience.

First is that people will go out and think something up on paper then expect it to work just b/c they are who they are... this is a slight exaggeration but point is that in order or a build to work, especially if it's a build w/ a wacky concept, you haaaaave to try hard to make it work. you have to try your absolute best, and this plays into a lot about what joox is saying. In order to test a build to it's absolute fullest i'd want a player to attempt to put some kind of pressure on me. i dunno about you but I love thinking about cha in my spare time so this first one was a big problem for me and when i played i did not really take into account the other player and my own effort i was putting in. Like i've said a dozen times over vent and aim/fbchat w/e since i came to this realization, the reason why people can make builds work is b/c they put the effort into playing that build to it's fullest, not just thinking it up and making it infallible on paper or in chat. that little tidbit applies directly to the first situation.

Second plays somewhat a little into what charged was saying. I know glorn said he picks "shitty builds" but even those builds have some kind of concept behind them that is not weak. you cannot expect to pick a janky build w/ a weak concept and play against a player or two whom is mildly skilled and pull it off, so long as they themselves are focused and playing a normal build. I know you might hate me for this but i'll go back to the fw build that you were talking about earlier epic. fw+hex + darkness+explosion is not a very strong concept and sure you could make this work w/ extreme micro... but why would you? this does not aim to insult anyone as a player but think about how this build plays out. its like when we tell people when they're learning "pick a farmer, disable, lategame skill, and ultimate". sure it can work but it wont get you far and you cannot expect someone whose running... i dunno... passive tank to not get enough health to bash it around. The point from this is, and i mean no offense to you as a player, the build is weak. and just because 1 concept looks good on paper to 1 person doesnt mean it pans out completely, theres time constraints theres item constraints theirs always the factor of bad connection. anyway back to point, this can be remedied by picking comfortable skills along with your "test" skill. eventually after working w/ the skill long enough and becoming comfortable w/ its uses, its pros, and its cons you'll be able to save it in your back pocket for when you find another skill that works well with it.

neway... thats pretty much what i wrote... makes me sad that it didnt show up earlier
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:14 pm

Dude this post for some reason reminded me of one of my joke how to become a custom hero arena pro basically a huge spoof of what you shouldnt do. Among them was the Im testing something new the just incase I lose excuse. It cracks me up but so many people use that one rofl.
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:34 pm

well for people who dont random all day long testing is a very integral part of cha that keeps it interesting and innovative.
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:44 pm

@tuus:
I meant no offense; but I have heard.... many times... of you doing that. Piss does it too. A lot of people do it, I just picked you as an example. Same as territo; he happened to pull the "Im testing a build" line a lot; then run a build i have seen him use a dozen times. Same kid who says, "lets both random" then proceeds to pick a build, after you random. Another perfect example of people putting too much emphasis on winning, rather than playing a good game.

Agreement to piss also (and charge):
Yeah, I think it is very smart to add new skills to a build you already know works. Swap out a farmer for a new one you wanna try. get the hang of it, then swap out another skill.

If you try out an entirely new concept... you will fail. I doubt anyone can grab 4 skills they havent used, and be able to use them properly.

****************************************************************
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PostSubject: Re: The Fallacy of "Needing to Win"   Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:21 pm

Pissonmyhands wrote:
well for people who dont random all day long testing is a very integral part of cha that keeps it interesting and innovative.

I don't even remember the last time he random in a game. No offense to did or anything but all he does is use a hosting server to host 1 vs 3 games for him all day long. Testing builds is something I don't know what to say about that as I don't use any builds. I don't think it should matter what build they used against you. Part of making a successful build is being able to play it even when you fall behind. The only thing I can think of as being dirty would to deliberately run a counter build to the one they're trying to test. The easy solution is to simply never tell them the build your going to run. Still I probably missed the point of the topic entirely which is the fallacy of needing to win. I don't think anyone really needs to win it's just a goal of the game your playing other wise it would never end.
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