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 depressed, but, ORB STACKING

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Glorn2
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PostSubject: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:32 pm

[18:28:11] @ Glorn2 : the orb in the first spot of your inventory, will have its affect work
[18:28:21] @ Glorn2 : so... lets say you have a corruption orb, and an ice orb
[18:28:29] @ Glorn2 : you have corrupt in slot 1, and ice in slot 2
[18:28:40] @ Glorn2 : both effects last for 5 seconds
[18:28:43] Shankz : sounds lke a new threads a coming explaining orbs xD
[18:29:05] @ Glorn2 : you hit someone with corrupt, they lose 10 armor.... so, you swap the items in your inventory, so ice orb is first.... and attack again...
[18:29:22] @ Glorn2 : they still have 5 seconds of -10 armor.. and they now have the ice orb slow, for 5 seconds
[18:29:36] @ Glorn2 : switch back to corrupt orb... and it will refresh the 5 second armor reduction


From chatbox....

[18:26:45] @ Glorn2 : HOWEVEVEVEERRRRRRRR
[18:27:14] @ Glorn2 : the next person to suggest that feedback, lifesteal, or poison strike are orb affects... is going to have their face torn in half


any questions?

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epicpowda11
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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:37 pm

You know whats an awesome orb .. the Feed-Life-Poison-Steal-Back-Strike effect. Rrraappeess
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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:08 pm

i think its wrath's turn to write a big article on game mechanics, i did evasion vs armor last time...
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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:13 am

I hate to have my face torn off but I'm still not convinced that life steal is not an orb. What are the arguments that it is a buff placer; It doesn't grant melee the ability to attack air, and your not able to juggle it with the other known orbs. Those are two very solid and strong arguments. What makes me think life steal is an orb; For one it is very apparently visible that it stacks with other buff placers on the same attack, and it follows the other format of most orb as it completely changes their attack visual. Most buff placers do not change the attack visual but instead lace it with an effect. Attack visual is perhaps a weak counter argument but you can't over look the fact that it is stacking with other buff placers on the same attack.
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Glorn2
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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:00 am

the arguement is... that if you go into the world editor... open up the object editor... and check out the difference... what defines an orb is that it allows you to enable attack type 2. lifesteal doesnt allow for this.

You can call it whatever you want to call it, but it is not an orb affect.

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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:04 am

so why doesn't feedback work with poison strike?
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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:39 am

Charge the last large game mechanic post I did was on Damage Reduction stacking (which might of been when rev came out) But I'm gonna say its Yeti's turn to do a game mechanic post

Ignatius Rock Don't worry about why it just doesn't work end of story.

Careful I bite primarch allows you to attack air even if it doesn't allow attack type 2 to be enabled it also overrides all orb affects so while it may not be an orb effect or a true orb effect it does have some very similar qualities.

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Glorn2
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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:24 pm

very few people know this... generally because of the way we progress through the game...

Scepter of the primarch DOES NOT allow you to attack air. I recall this from my 5.4b days, where I could get a scepter for the first duel on speed demon; but couldnt hit dragons with it, unless I also bought an orb.

The reason things like poison and feeback dont stack is because... well... of the WC3 engine.

You see, WC3 was not really made to be so heavily edited by users. There are a large number of skills in the game, that simply cannot work the way they should, because of the way blizzard made them.

For example, you cannot put a negative value into thunder clap. It will do nothing. For example, stasis trap, all of the values in the editor are labeled wrong. Ladder taunt can be clicked out of. Many buffs do not take into account +damage from weapons, when buffing or reducing damage.

This is one of the reasons why I have decided to move to SC2. The entire engine is build so that you can customize anything, and never have a problem with "limited editor abilities"

However, to be put as plainly as possible, "Blizzard has assigned an order in which attack modifiers will stack. That is the order they stack/override in."

Really though, I dont think blizzard intentionally did it. Most of their problems are caused by things they never thought of combining.

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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:20 pm

the problem is... there are more than just orb effects and non-orb effects, if you have ever gone to a real mechanic forums there are like entire pages dedicated to different attack modifiers, and for the sake of CHA we try to keep it simple, because there are relatively few of them and most of them aren't triggered skills. I'll work up a post about this, but ill have to look at teh world editor at the items and item abilities when i get teh chance and clear up everything.
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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:33 pm

... the editor doesnt tell you jack shit about how things stack.

What makes an orb affect an orb affect, is that it enables attack type 2. There are 7 unique orb affects in the game.

Darkness (summons skellys)
Fire (splash)
Frost (slow)
Light (purge)
Poison (damage over time)
corruption (Armor reduction)
Orb of range (lol)

those are the only orbs in the game. their effects are built in.

things like lifesteal... it is just lifesteal. There is nothing to the ability that would ever suggest why it over rides some skills, or works alongside others. Really, there is nothing at all explained by the game, or by blizzard, to explain why these things happens.

The only information on it, is stuff that people have tested, and thought up their own reasoning behind. Crits and bashes, have a type of math behind them. the same type of math for any "chance on hit" ability; that is preprogrammed into WC3. things like poison strike, feedback, ect... they got nothing. There is no answer as to why they do not stack, or work alongside each other, except that blizzard did not expect people to want to use them together. the more you edit, the more you learn, that blizzard made the game first, then allowed you to edit things. SC2 is the other way. they made an editor, then built the game from that editor. this fixed all problems.

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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:22 pm

even though that is true, there are small things in different games that make how the orbs work different. for example, if i were to make a map like custom hero arena, everything would be based on either Orb of range or Slow Orb.

Why you might ask, because these are tested to have no stacking issues. They can be used exclusively and can be switched out so neither overrides the other. That is how LifeSteal and things like S and Y are done in dota...

Using all the built in Orbs of the game complicate thngs.


Things like Effects include lifesteal and Incinerate and will override everything else.

Buff Placers are things that literally place a buff on the enemy unit like Slow Orb or poison attack.

Things like Fire, Ice and Light orb aren't used in a whole bunch of custom maps, because they have tricky mechanisms and honestly i don't know the Jass behind them, but each of them have their own names...
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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:33 pm

orb of range and orb of slow are the same as the rest of the orbs..

What dota uses, is an attack detection system. The only workable system, is to base ALL attacks on the orb of range, and then add in trigger detection based on items and abilities, to trigger any side effects.

The reason DoTA uses those 2 orbs, is because those are the 2 "different" aspects of orbs. 1 is simply based on attacking. Fire and orb of range share this. The other is an affect placing orb; which all other orbs have. These are not buffs; they are affects; in many situations. though, they can also be used to place buffs.

With those 2 orbs; you can trigger any attack type you want.

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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:41 am

Thats actually not true, in the early games of dota, there were several problems because they used orb of fire before which caused tons of fatal errors for god knows what. orb of ice was also used, and is still used, but it still causes lots of problems... there are actually many problems.
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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:01 pm

attack 1 - items, auras, lifesteal etc...

attack 2 - orb effects, (you may only use 1 of these on wc3 engine usually)

the reason why you cant normally orb-stack is that you are not supposed to be able to use fire-ice-light-orb.

Being this, just being able to swap orbs in the inventory and be able to use multiples of them is just a glitch and nothing we can do about it.

GET OVER IT
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PostSubject: Re: depressed, but, ORB STACKING   Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:41 pm

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depressed, but, ORB STACKING
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