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 CHA-Theory - Learning

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Glorn2
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PostSubject: CHA-Theory - Learning   Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:26 pm

After talking with a handful of people, I wanted to discuss some CHA-theory, and it's general importance to the game; alongside the learning process.

how does one learn?
- Obviously everyone learns differently.
- Some people need to be nurtured and loved, and stroked, and told everything is going to be okay. Only then will they make any attempt to listen to what their moth... teacher is trying to tell them.
- Some people can learn just from being told something. You can say "do this" and they will do it with no questions asked. Later, after doing it a dozen times, they will have an understanding of why they did it.
- Some people need to argue and be proven wrong. they may have no idea why they disagree with what they are being told; but until they are proven wrong, they will not accept a word of it for truth.
- Some people learn from doing. It doesnt matter how much you tell them, it falls to the floor. they keep playing, and pick it up pretty quickly as they go; usually from playing with better and better players.
- Some people need orginization. they draw up charts, graphs, have 14 different colored markers to mark various things, 16 spiral notebooks for each topic; and about 14 ven-diagrams drawn up, ready to go. These people can over-analyze anything, and know a lot about everything. downside is that nothing in real life is that black and white.

Not going to say any specific way is better than another, as it is an evolved system of learning that we take up from childhood.

In terms of CHA though, this can cause problems for people who want to learn to be good, and people who want to learn to theorycraft. Lets look at some current examples, shall we?

territo and stomp both learn from being loved and cuddled with. This makes them difficult for people to train them; but once they find someone to confide in, they will absorb 99% if the information given out. So long as they have a good trainer, they will learn well.

H can learn very well from simply being told something. Tell him how to counter something, and he will count that thing in that way. Tell him how to use a skill, and he will use the skill in that way. He has to learn flexability on his own; but it makes teaching gameplay pretty easy. theorycrafting is really hard for these people though.

Charge needs to argue. yeti does a bit also, and epic. I think I do too... Charge is the worst with this though; he will argue anything, with few facts supporting his side. Once you prove him wrong though, and explain to him why and how that is untrue, it becomes understood well. Why? well, a good debate that isnt a trollfest is packed full of information. you start bringing the equations into it, and all of these reasons why something is how it is... and you wont forget it.

piss, is our organized feller. by far. Wrath is pretty organized also; but piss is like, 3X more. A fountain of knowledge that cannot put itself to use. Combined with someone like H, who only needs to be told what to do; you can produce a very powerful player. However, alone, piss runs like a bot. "if player B casts spell X" "buy item Y". And there are just far too many possibilities for him to try to maintain an organized form of all possibilities. Best way to throw him off his game is simply by doing something random. you can play poorly; doing strange, almost stupid things, and his organized ways cause his circuits to fry.


To the people who seek me out, to train with me, and why I attempt to teach people the game the way I do:
Could be because I love beating people... But, if that was it, I would just play pubs all day with a handicap of 50, for bragging rights. but no...

- What do you learn?
People suggest that I have pretty pro early game farming, and item builds. Why do you think I try to beat everyone early game? By playing games with me, and losing 30-40 times... what are you slowly learning? the power of early game. Anyone can go slithery with static shock, bash, and ele mastery; and wait a game out until you are 2 kills from losing, then pull off an "impossible comeback" after wasting 2 hours of life...

- What I try to teach is aggressiveness, and how to counter it.
You need to be able to survive early game, if you want any chance of making it to late game. Why spend 2 hours winning a game, if you can do it in 20 min?
you need to be able to survive that mentality also. Playing against someone who wants to win in 20 min is rough; if you can learn to outlast their early game strength, taking minor deaths... then you can win later.

- Why dont I tell people exactly what to do?
This game is about learning to deal with things that can change at any second. Didnot is so good at this game because he randoms with pubs all day. he never knows what skills he will have, or what his opponents might have. People need to learn on their own how and when to get what, to counter their opponents.


Why this post???

Some newer members have suggested that I am harsh in my ways of teaching; especially compared to wrath and piss. And, well, most importantly... you do not need to come to me for training; many people have learned the game perfectly fine on their own. The forum privides a lot of information as well; as do a lot of people you might bump into in public games.

what I will offer, is that the majority of "best players" in cha history, have obtained that status from being trained by me, in my style. Eventually, they are sent off to learn on their own, after they understand how to learn; because, frankly, I try to teach people to think and learn on their own, rather than relying on me for the answers.

you may not like the assholish way in which I teach, and that is fine; I do not want anyone to dislike playing the game because of this. However, if you have a goal to be really good at CHA, because that somehow weighs heavily on your life; then I can train you; and it will make you feel bad about yourself.


On this note, I am almost done with my current bunch of trainee's; and am looking for 2 more people to train; so if anyone is interested, and pretty active... and accepting of the terms above... message me.

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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:17 pm

Glorn2 wrote:
territo and stomp both learn from being loved and cuddled with. This makes them difficult for people to train them; but once they find someone to confide in, they will absorb 99% if the information given out. So long as they have a good trainer, they will learn well.

not ALL true. i learn from a lot of different ways. if all i get is nurtured, ill go crazy, if all i get is shat on repeatedly, ill just get upset. the only reason we have not trained together is because a) you never offer anymore b)when your on, your doing something else. i do want to train with you because your right, most, if not all of the best cha players have been trained by you, and i do desire to become a better player. but after you just obliterating me over and over again, and saying that you were alt tabbed most of the time, i only got discouraged. GRANTED i did learn a lot, and it IS a large part of me becoming a better cha player. i respect your teaching style it just does not fit me all the time. i hope that me arguing on pisses side did not lesser your opinion of me (although it was already low) but piss deserves credit. as does yeti. and h. and charge. and wrath. and you. without you we wouldnt be putting 1/3 of our lives into this game. im not trying to sound like im getting defensive. at all. im just trying to get you to understand that i dont fit into any one of the groups of types of learning you stated, but a combination of all of them.

oh... and in your prologue to the post.... i listen to you. a lot. because i know that you have a lot of good things to learn from. so dont put me in that category. im not a baby despite popular opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:33 pm

I'm a little confused exactly where is the cha theory? All I see is the theory of a players learning curve.

Edit: I guess I should of read the learning part of the title.


Last edited by carefulibite on Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:45 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:44 pm

b/c i help with the theory side of the game. what glorn is trying to say is that there are 2 sides to playing (just like martial arts) theres yin (the soft side of thought and theory) and theres yang the (hard side of application and refinement). i wont claim to have students like glorn or wrath, i'm just here to help. if you want to play me in 1v1s thats fine but when it comes to "yang" dont ask me about shit plz b/c i'm still working on my own. the only way i'd be able to answer u in those regards is by showing u a replay of u and me playing and even then its still all theory. if u wanna ask me about anything related to the theory side of cha thats fine. i can help, i can tell you what is probably going through a players head and why they do what they do, i can tell you what would happen if you pick x and he picked w. i can help you understand why your feeling so crappy about the way you play, but i'm not ready to teach you how to play. i can only help with what i know best.
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:55 pm

There is a lot of theory in teaching and learning. One of the bigger things to look at in the above... is who learns from what. Despite my generalizations of other teaching styles (what kinda person would I be if i didnt think mine were the best?) there are 3 paths, each viable.

Someone like territo, really cant stand being beaten and told he is doing something wrong. Wrath can deal with that much more easily than me; he is a nice guy. He talks to territo 1 on 1, and teaches him in a way that is helpful.

Piss, is brilliant, but cannot apply it. If H sat down and listened to everything piss knew, H would be imba.

I work best with people who dont mind a loss, and are good at critical thinking.

now, what happens when the wrong kind of person goes to the wrong teaching type?

Say charge were to go to wrath. Charge just wants to play the game and kick ass, or get his ass kicked. He isnt tooo much into the theory of stuff, of the being a nice guy aspect. He learns from arguing; which is why me and him work good together.

If territo comes to me, or piss (which he did) it didnt end well. Neither of us like that attitude. We dont play with people who get too upset at a loss. We are not good teachers for him.

Some people who think if they only knew the answers they would win; might go to piss. Never met someone who just wanted all the answers, thinking it would make them smart? these are the people who get a 4.0 in college, then get hit by a bus while crossing a road on a crosswalk, cuz they "know" they have the right-of-way, and didnt look at oncoming traffic.


see, we have a general "sign up for training" thread... but everyone has their own way of learning, and everyone has their own way of teaching. My way is prolly the hardest to endure, because... well.. it really sucks for the first couple of months. But, if you know you have a certain style of learning; try to talk to the teacher who is best for you.

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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:13 pm

so piss, when are we gonna do taht sit down? Very Happy

but i agree completely glorn, everyone learns differently, and thus needs a teacher who learned the way that they will learn.
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:22 pm

Glorn2 wrote:

- Some people can learn just from being told something. You can say "do this" and they will do it with no questions asked. Later, after doing it a dozen times, they will have an understanding of why they did it.

^^ Me, Tell me what to do and ill do it no question. Ill figure out why later Razz
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:32 am

Quote :
Never met someone who just wanted all the answers, thinking it would make them smart? these are the people who get a 4.0 in college, then get hit by a bus while crossing a road on a crosswalk, cuz they "know" they have the right-of-way, and didnt look at oncoming traffic.

Way to describe my life.


Quote :

Charge is the worst with this though; he will argue anything, with few facts supporting his side. Once you prove him wrong though, and explain to him why and how that is untrue, it becomes understood well.


Thats because he's a scientist. Another thing charge does that few do is test theories and different combinations, not just in serious matches but quick ones. Like the Pulv + Bash stacking thing etc. Again, because he has a scientific approach.
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:23 am

k but i need a sparring partner Wink soo ya ur gonna have to play me and help me with refinement. honestly i think this topic has its ups and downs.

but one big thing people should get out of this is to realize that you have a shiton of resources and a crap ton of options in the cha community. like glorn said, pretty much every player that has succeeded even mildly at the game has been produced by a combination of him and that players own exploring. but one important thing to note is that now that we have these different players, we also have access to a lot of different things that we would've never even started to imagine back then. the cha community has always been advancing and diversifying and with it comes different people that have different strs, weaknesses, and needs. to fill these gaps we've inevitably developed our game knowledge to a point where the knowledge we had when we had to "figure it out for ourselves" is analogous to a swimming pool vs a great lake. this being said many of these things need to be enforced one way or another in order for a player to reach a "high level" of play. the way you do that is completely up to you.
In addition, your not just limited to one source of knowledge, insight, or thinking. you've got glorn, yeti, charged, epic, wrath, myself, and honestly many others who can help in their own ways. stagnation something that i've seen kill a lot of players for the past 4 years so i'd encourage people to seek different types of information if they feel frustrated. like stomp said he learns in different ways and for some people a conjunction of 2 paths is needed.

honestly if you trying to climb to a higher level of play do not waste these resources and their diversity. they are here for all levels of players for the most part and attempting to forgo 4 years of solid foundation where players have been trying to find the "best" possible ways to play the game is a slap in the face to both their hard work, individuality, and goodwill.


Quote :
these are the people who get a 4.0 in college, then get hit by a bus while crossing a road on a crosswalk, cuz they "know" they have the right-of-way, and didnt look at oncoming traffic.

@epic heh...story of my life, cept i'm the bus driver
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:46 pm

I agree with what u said Glorn and where u put me. But also sometimes i just do it if someone tells me to do it, but i do ask why. Other than that, i think that this post will be very helpful for people that want to learn, but dont know why the way they are learning isnt helping.
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:40 am

i don't know if any of these describe me .... or all fit me in a way hm... guess i just don't know how i learn

or teach... guess I'm just sorta making it up as i go along...
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:19 pm

reading this post just made me think back through all the years to when i first joined chao ( i was like 9 at the time) and realised that nobody really became my teacher. When i first discovered cha as a ignorant 8 year old pub, i just played it and played it until i could beat all the pubs i played with. then i met querty in a 1v1, and i suppose he taught me alot... exept for the fact that when i met him i steamrolled over him and he raged. lol. then i just got into chao, but ive never been taught anything. i teach others, but now i feel left out cuz i never had a loving caring moth...teacher :/
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:33 pm

back when you joined, me and terra played a lot of games with you are taught you a lotta things; I believe even fats did. Considering the Dozens of times ive beaten you with a build, and then you used said build, and learned the abilities in it; then beaten lots of noobs with it... that is a form of teaching.

Same as soul thirst and HST. Soul was pretty bad at the game; but would constantly play with me, fats, and jar. He learned from playing with us, and became much better. HST has learned how to avoid ganks; from the ~200 games he has played against clan members who knew "if i gank him early, he will always lose!" Now people know that he plays pure late game, and wont gank... so get slithery with spiked armor, or timmy with unholy aura. Eventually, HST will start considering ganking suck weak ass builds.

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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:47 am

Hell id love some training. Ive learned some shit on my own and with some random help ive gotten with clan members, but I really need training. I only have like basic survival skills. Maybe not even that.
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:43 am

ill teach ya some stuff ignacio.... i have some tricks up my sleeve that i think you would do well with. just try to be on often... ill play ya alot and give ya some tips
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:54 pm

Quote :
Eventually, HST will start considering ganking suck weak ass builds.

Lol, or or just spam cl / ww / banish / silent night on him hahaha
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:39 pm

hey venom whats ur b.net name? That way I can /w you =) and thx inadvance.
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:37 pm

my bnet name is venom2. yeah lol, i would have that as my forum name to but there was a glitch with the forum not letting me use my email adress or the name venom2, eventually glorn made me one with his email so its bromancing the venom for me. im also a grunt, just click on my icon and whisp when im on.
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PostSubject: Re: CHA-Theory - Learning   Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:25 pm

i agree completely but i learn in two major ways

1. arguing
2. testing

but as a teacher i consider myself as very flexible i have helped teach everyone from H to territo, i try to suit the student, but alas i am only human.

but i feel like the best way to teach someone is to focus only on one concept per game... just 1 concept i don't care if they make 10000 mistakes. if u reinforce the 1 major mistake they are more likely to remember it
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