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 The Game

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Mr.Blonde
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PostSubject: The Game   Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:39 pm

Sooooooooo.... with the new shorter times between duels and less str gain per level late game heroes have taken some major hits vs early game heroes.

Everyone knows i like short games, but it seems that most late game heroes are further weakened from the last patch when they were still usable. The balance continues to be around early game heroes and late gamers like MK and such are just not being used at all due to low MS and low intel gains. Sure you still see a few low int heroes around like illidan but i feel like most of the other late gamers are pretty unusable now...
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Glorn2
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PostSubject: Re: The Game   Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:45 pm

i still see pubs use them constantly. Low MS doesnt make you suck, the fact that you all rely so heavily on move speed, and int, is what makes you weak. The heroes arent weak, you just all have the same playstyle that is evolved around running fast and casting lots of spells.

You seem to be doing a lot of complaining lately, that goes hand in hand with the fact that you havent been playing much. generally what happens is, someone starts losing due to being too busy elsewhere, and likes to blame the system.

I have seen no problem with late game heroes or builds; in fact, i saw a great MK build from a pubby the other day. When i doubt, look at didnot; he randoms every game, and makes the best of any build; usually good enough to compete with grunts.

It isnt the heroes and skills as much as it is the players, without knowing how to change their style of play.

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Mr.Blonde
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PostSubject: Re: The Game   Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:11 pm

Quote :
you seem to be doing a lot of complaining lately

i take offense to that, if im not complaining how will you know if im still alive?

complaining and discussion is the bread and butter of a forum imo... i didn't realize this was agree with every change forum or be ostracized. lol

but im not blaming the system, im merely making an observation that late game builds seem to be getting weaker when compared to early game builds based solely on the fact that duels are closer together.
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Glorn2
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PostSubject: Re: The Game   Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:27 pm

yeah, this is true; it is my attempt to make games shorter, and more balanced for pubbies.

I was just picking on you with the complaints, it is fine, and they are valid observations.

For the majority of games though, if you have a late game build, and simply avoid ganks, you will win eventually; due to late game. Look at HSTs build. Most pubs, everyone just picks a late game build, and waits until someone hits a kill count. Faster duels, makes that come sooner. Hopefully, a pub will realize eventually that earlier game skills are actually worth picking.

Clan and pub games are completely different. We play early game, they play late game. This change hurts everyone though; you have less HP early, and less HP late. You also have less mana, that is so that passive builds are more viable. if you cannot cast as many spells to farm, then people passive leveling wont fall far behind. also, i am yet to see anyone hit 8 for first duel without ganks. This means that few people will ever have their ult for the first duel, making that 1-2 level difference very minimal. before, level 8 with ult would almost always beat level 7 without it. however, 6 vs 7 isnt very far apart, in terms of skills and damage potential.

Really, the change was intended to make the game faster, and buff passive heroes and skills.

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Sharky
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PostSubject: Re: The Game   Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:34 pm

This is a little off topic but were any game features added?
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PostSubject: Re: The Game   Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:32 am

Double Post but I figured I post it here I seriously think you should rebalance skills because level 15 is insane.

Most of your nukes unless you have weak are simply not worth leveling that far. Mean while your debuffs are on the near op side because the item counters cost way too much to over come them take (Clap and Poison imagine if they got those together) -241% move speed doesnt strike you as being a little much??? On top of that -270% some odd attack speed so basically unless you stacked 600 agility you cant win the toe to toe and you cant escape. I know you can basically nuker rape me if you got them but just note to over come the your ms is slowed to 100 factor you would have to get Sprint with Immortals Boots and still feel fairly slow. I made some poor pubby cry and honestly I felt for him because that struck me as op. Instead of comparing which skills counter which maybe we should also consider the cost it takes to over come the skills when you dont have the counter skill. On a side note no debuff should ever go above 100 I mean the poor guy couldnt even touch me even with auroric set Range vs Melee and I wasnt doing it to be mean just to test how gay the kite factor is and well its super gay.
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Glorn2
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PostSubject: Re: The Game   Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:41 am

however, you are investing 30 points into slowing them. Once they hit 750 total agility, you have no affect on their attack speed. If they dont need to run, you have nothing on them.

A stone staff will eat your mana, t-clap being the most mana intensive skill you can pick. Stone staff+ww=you have no mana, and you are just poison strike kiting. but wait, there is more! With stone staff and WW, you can walk up to your opponent, and slap him, also slowing him to minimum move speed. And BAM, you are going at the same rate.

Ranged heroes simply have no problem with this, due to attack speed is all you need to counter their 30 point investment.

Also, the fact that you are leveling with only t-clap makes you level slowly.

Add in an ice shield to the mix...

Speed set + Time benders...

Really, you can get a larger speed difference from items alone, that having to invest 30 skill points....

A speed set is 60% increase, shield is 70% slow, stone rank 2 is ~150% slow when it procs. Unholy aura on items is 40% increase; signet is the wind god is 40% slow. That is a 360% move speed difference, from items alone. Meanwhile, you are arguing about investing 30 skill points to obtain a 260% slow, at the cost of a lot of your mana... and again, 30 skill points.

If you are stupid enough to go melee with no counter at all to ranged slow, and do not plan to invest in the items to counter ranged kite, then you cannot expect to win.

However, I do agree that high level nukes are under used; but their damage IS quite high. 1500 spell damage every 8 second, for the average spell. Spells still deal more damage than attacking, when your opponent has 75% reduction and 120 armor. Which is why I get parasite and poison nova to 15; as DOTs they have high damage; at 15, that damage still hurts... a lot... same as nova; a ~2500 damage nuke every 9 seconds? With no banish or weak C, that is still a lot of damage on 75% reduction (about 600) 6 casts in a duel, is 3600 of their HP gone. Might seam weak, but compared to their 85% damage reduction, dealing that extra damage is nice...

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PostSubject: Re: The Game   Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:00 am

Okay lol well seems like the stat nerf is working as an indirect buff to the likes of Staff or Tiara as they give direct +Mana and are looking more and more appealing at the moment. Also I think it kind of hits agility more then the other classes as most of their items dont give a direct + to their mana pool the only direct + to hp is the theifs so where the other intell and strength aim for items that give direct +HP or MP agility have to rely on what the stat gain gives them. As a result this kind of forces your hand on what items to get at the moment atleast if you plan to farm via actives that is.
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PostSubject: Re: The Game   Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:15 am

really though, the crown of ages and crown of mana goddess can work on any hero that needs mana. They give all stats, they give mana, mana regen, and damage reduction. So as you said, it makes them look better and better for any build that needs mana.

The upside to playing agility, as always though, is that they get the most DPS from stats. Maybe less HP and MP from items, but their main stat also increases attack speed, so they dont need to rely on spells as much for farming. Just like STR heroes dont have to worry about survival as much as an int hero does; and int heroes dont have to worry about their mana pool like agi heroes. Everyone has their strong point ^_^

I am glad you noticed that staffs are pretty usable as starting items; I dont think anyone else has realized that yet.

I figured the nerf to stats would make the +hp and +mp items a bit more used. It is only 1 mana per int and 2 life per str though; so it isnt a huge buff, but it is enough to notice mid and later game, when comparing 100 str to 1500 life gain.

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PostSubject: Re: The Game   Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:16 pm

Quote :
Stone staff+ww=you have no mana, and you are just poison strike kiting. but wait, there is more! With stone staff and WW, you can walk up to your opponent, and slap him, also slowing him to minimum move speed. And BAM, you are going at the same rate.

Don't forget the new intel mana burn item. That + Stone Staff = different cool downs. All it pretty much doubles your mana burn in two fast hits.... its rape.
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